SMN Why don't we hear about egi glamours anymore?

[Atamis]

First of all, each FF game (post-FF10) has treated summoning differently.
If it really did the so-called "summoner legacy" justice, then it'd do nothing more but summon to attack all enemies (like a "flashier" spell) and that'd be it.
Making the Summoner itself a defenseless sitting duck if it had no summons to call upon (why do you think they mixed it up with other jobs?).

Secondly, this iteration of SMN is perfectly explained/adjusted/set up by the rules of this game's universe (lore).
Egis are a part of its identity, and they have been from the very start.

And finally, summons are definitely NOT inconsequential and irrelevant here.They are a part of your own rotation. The summons don't fight for you, the fight alongside you (even Yoshida commented on how the job had to be able to do stuff by itself).
As I said, it's just that we are already covered when it comes to pet "roles" from a balance stand-point.

Anyways, I do agree that useless stuff like Physick should be replaced (like say, with Demi-Phoenix's Everlasting Flight, but on demand), but I stand by my opinion that Egis should NOT be removed from this game.

Yes that is exactly what a SUMMONER is without a SUMMON. Another mage waiting to be picked off. Taking the summon out of summoner means no class. I don't see a problem here.
They "mixed in" different jobs because reasons they don't want to explain. Why is it just summoner that has to be mixed? The best guess is traditionally Summoner has been either a black mage or white mage that can also call upon summons. The only time this has changed is in the few times summons were disconnected from classes entirely and anyone could use them (like in VII with Materia)

No the "summoner legacy" isn't flash spells. Glamouring the egis into their real respective forms would be "flashy spells" Summoning is about calling in powerful spirit entities to give out big boons. It always has been. They have NEVER been a potato that auto attacks and maybe does a side ability here and there. And in game lore that tries to justify this is completely irrelevant. Its called Lampshading.

And yes they ARE inconsequential. Being shoehorned into a rotation does not change that. You can use garuda, ifrit, or chicken nugget. the result is the same. you press egi asasult 1, and then 2 (or not if you have potato shield) and thats it. ifrit is reduced to nothing more than an (laughably weak) auto attack. You could delete them and just cast assault yourself for the same result. They don't fight alongside you, the auto attack and are can easily be ignored. Before they became immune to damage it was VERY common to find out they died at some point and needed resummoned, not because anything about your rotation changed, just that they wern't there and that enkindle button stopped working. Given todays setting, you would only figure out they died because they're needed to transition into Demis. Their presence on the battlefield changed nothing.

Egis should be removed. If you want to keep Summoner as a pet class sure. We can make that work. But it should be akin to how Yuna uses hers in 10. You summon one, and now you have control of the beast for your own means. Replace your own cast bar and use theirs casting fireball or ice, or whatever summon is used. Pheonix already does this to a lesser extent. I see hardly any complaints on how Phoenix works. It seems universally liked by comparison. If anything Bahamut should get the exact same treatment.

Egis are not summons. they are pets.

[Marxam]

Egi's in 5.0 act more like Espers in FFXII. They follow you and only follow certain commands. Honestly I think they should stick with the egi's but rework how summon 1-3 works. Keep them distinct, magic, support, physical respectively, and you attune to a primal of your choice and it will act within one of those restraints. I like the idea of trances but honestly they shouldn't give up on egi's just yet because the aesthetic potential of the job is up high. Trances should be exclusive to world changing primals like Bahamut or Alexander and summoning should be for the "lesser" primals. Though with how the team literally gutted the tanks and healers this expansion I'm more inclined to believe they will disappear in the future but I will still argue for Egi's till the day I can summon a roe-sized Titian to fight in battle.

A personal nit pick of mine but I always thought egi-assault should be an ogcd but act like automaton queen where it simply performs a moveset and without the finisher. Here's a hypothetical:

Egi assault I - 15 sec duration, 30 sec recast, single target
Egi assault II - 15 sec duration, 30 sec recast, aoe

This lets you focus on other things and makes your egi look busy without having to much and ease up on the buttons. They also need to change dreadwyrm trance to summon the bigger version of the egi you currently have out and call it Primal Trance.

[Exodus-E]

They have NEVER been a potato that auto attacks and maybe does a side ability here and there.

FFXI's SMN Elementals say hi.

And in game lore that tries to justify this is completely irrelevant. Its called Lampshading.

Then I guess every single thing related to Egis (artwork, CGI renders, lore, quests, etc.) thus far is also completely irrelevant, amirite? /s
I think it's way, way too late to drastically remove/phase them out at this point.

Egis are not summons. they are pets.

Egis are summons, of a sort.
Created based off the real things (Primals) and made "manifest" by their creator (you).

Also, Summoner/Scholar are (to an extent) pet jobs.
Thus, they rely on them to supplement their own play-styles.

Again, I'm not opposed with expanding on the Trance/Demis system we currently have.
But I do take issue with removing such an integral part of their identity and play-style.

[HeulGDarian]

Stuff.

The reason you dont hear complaints about pheonix is cause the loud people like pheonix ,its why you got people left and right glorifying the demis and never admiting that they got just as many problems as the egis.
Heres some stuff that have been said about pheonix back when the people who had feedback to give instead of those who keep talking about a legacy that have not looked nearly hard enough to get past the big beaters part
1) Pheonix itself is a reskinned bahamut
2) Pheonix trance chained to pheonix makes pheonix more fun but screws over the job on downtime
3) everlasting flight is completely useless due to how healing is performed in this game
4) pheonix due to having everlasting flight ghosts your first auto if you cast enkindle right away, in order to not have that happen you got 3 options, triple weave ,single weave or hold
Whats the solution to all this? remove pheonix from the pheonix trance. what do people ask? make bahamut the same.
As for leting your egis die and not noticing, thats on you. in stormblood besides having to choose between ifrit and garuda depending the comp you also had to be on obey to maximise your effectiveness, with the exception the one patch where ifrit was busted. So unless you werent checking your pet timers it would be hard to not notice your pets dieing.

[Atamis]

FFXI's SMN Elementals say hi.

I really liked those summons to. They were a but much for visual clutter with more than one summoner, but they atleast worked as advertised. Its been a good long while since i played xi though, but i remember them being far more usfule that the egis.
And yes. i would say all the fluff around egis is irrelvent. plans change. egis didn't work as they planned and we are not obligated to keep straying down this road. Frankly they don't have to redo anything. just phase them out and never mention them again. make potato actually hold threat again and it might be useful for new players leveling.

The reason you dont hear complaints about pheonix is cause the loud people like pheonix ,its why you got people left and right glorifying the demis and never admiting that they got just as many problems as the egis.
Heres some stuff that have been said about pheonix back when the people who had feedback to give instead of those who keep talking about a legacy that have not looked nearly hard enough to get past the big beaters part
1) Pheonix itself is a reskinned bahamut
2) Pheonix trance chained to pheonix makes pheonix more fun but screws over the job on downtime
3) everlasting flight is completely useless due to how healing is performed in this game
4) pheonix due to having everlasting flight ghosts your first auto if you cast enkindle right away, in order to not have that happen you got 3 options, triple weave ,single weave or hold
Whats the solution to all this? remove pheonix from the pheonix trance. what do people ask? make bahamut the same.
As for leting your egis die and not noticing, thats on you. in stormblood besides having to choose between ifrit and garuda depending the comp you also had to be on obey to maximise your effectiveness, with the exception the one patch where ifrit was busted. So unless you werent checking your pet timers it would be hard to not notice your pets dieing.

Passive aggressive comments are not needed. If anything, i have looked at their legacy far longer than you have if you really only joined in 2018.
Reskinned bahamut is irrelevent.
Downtime is a bad result with it being linked how it is. can easily be improved with another demi to weave it and giving the ability no cooldown instead.
everlasting flight is a flavor buff that is indeed far to weak to be a real concern and is a victim of the homogenization virus that has taken hold of the game.
Ghosting has always been a problem. Its a problem with the server based authentication rather than client based most MMOs use. it will never go away until internet speeds are nearly instantaneous
And it was still very easy to miss your pet dieing. Its a simple matter that existed since ARR. it still existed in stormblood just far less so as they had avoidance traits then. maybe you paid more attention to timers than the game itself. who knows.

[Exodus-E]

Frankly they don't have to redo anything. just phase them out and never mention them again.

Once again, it's way, way too late to drastically remove/phase them out at this point.
It'd be like removing the faeries from Scholars or the turret/automaton from Machinists (also integral parts of their identities/lore).

Besides, each game has a different take on a given job.
And in FF14's case in particular, this is what we got for SMN.

Adding more Trances/Demis? That's fair game.
Removing Egis out of existence? Not happening.

[Atamis]

Once again, it's way, way too late to drastically remove/phase them out at this point.
It'd be like removing the faeries from Scholars or the turret/automaton from Machinists (also integral parts of their identities/lore).

Besides, each game has a different take on a given job.
And in FF14's case in particular, this is what we got for SMN.

Adding more Trances/Demis? That's fair game.
Removing Egis out of existence? Not happening.

Absolutly none of that needs to matter. It is a video game. they can change data at will and retcon events. They've done it before. They phased out the mch turret just fine. Its still there in essence, but requires none of the babysitting it used to require. its just a stationary automaton queen, in fact they completely removed the bishop turret.

And yes every game has had some quirk on the summoner. but XIV has yet to even get a summon to make that quirk. Its been ruins, and bios, and auto attacking chicken nuggets until they started doing trances. Now we can get to the XIV version of a summoner. Egis are a failed experiment at making a summoner. Maybe it could of worked better than XIs, but this AI and the server authentication make it extremely unreliable and clunky.

Egis no longer serve their intended purposes. We should not keep kicking that can down the road promising this time will be different. If the lore is the restriction change it or move on in the lore. They can easily have Y'mhitra have new quests where she says this egi thing isn't working out and we can abandoned it in favor of better solutions. If having *A* pet is such a big deal you can easily keep a carbuncle and give it taunt so it can actually do something useful. It needs do nothing more to be better than the current Egis.

[Vitreus]

I'd rather there be a difference in game play when you use another primal instead of it just being cosmetic. Which to that end the Egi system needs a rework. As it stands Titan is already a situational third wheel. If we want to include more than three summons in the actual Summoner class we need to represent them in a way other than Egi's.

Egi's themselves just kind of feel pointless. Before they auto attacked and we didn't interact with them. After the rework sure we can command them but it's just us using abilities with a delay. You could remove the Egi entirely and there wouldn't be a noticeable difference. We would just be throwing out the abilities of the primals we've encountered.

To that end we could have "summons" be a more traditional Final Fantasy design where they are moves. Summoning Titan could make an aberration of him appear and stomp on the target for high damage. Ifrit could replace bio as the damage over time where he leaves a burn on the target. Leviathan could be an aoe tidal wave. But as you see it would require us moving away from the traditional Arcanist role we've always filled. Which I think is probably necessary. Part of the reason I think the job feels so bloated is because its trying to be both an Arcanist with ruin/bio/miasma/fester/painflare/etc and a summoner with trances, demis, and Egi's. Each expansion the Summoner role has been expanded upon and the job has become more bloated. Now we are at the point where we are losing abilities like shadowflare entirely just to make more room.

If Yoshida wants he could just split the class. Have Arcanist fulfill the Alphinaud fantasy of a manipulator of aether and summoner actually be a summoner that uses the power of primals and enters trances to create demis.

[HeulGDarian]

Stuff

Oh reskinned bahamut is irrelevant but when the egi glams came up you yourself said that theyd be flashy spells.
Also do you seriously think that Trance on 0 cooldown would mean you wont get screwed over by downtime? did you miss the fact that you got 20 seconds to do stuff? You dont fight downtime by adding more windows where you can lose value.
Also Also how is everlasting flight a victim of overhomogenisation?
Not only that ghosting being a problem forever doesnt detract from the fact that you tolerate it on the demis but you call it out on the egis.
You say you dont need passive aggressive comments, Then get serious and put out objective arguments, Then only 2 persons ive seen actually put a well thought arguement on why they wanted egis to go wasnt saying contradictory stuff in order to defend themselves , nor did they arbitrary pick parts of what helped his argument and willingfully left the stuff that didnt line up. The opinions they brought was as follows, If they cant fix the ai then they might as well remove it, and the second one was i dont like how the egis look.
Simple As That. No bullshit such as oh this aint a smn cause of the arbitrary shit i pulled off. No i dont care about the story in the lore driven game of the job that is the most lore driven in the series. No shitty arbitrary excuses for demis no nothing.

So ill say it again to drill it in your head, You dont want passive aggressiveness then stop trying to pass arbitrary as objective.

[Atamis]

salt

Please tell me how Demi Bahamut and Demi Phoenix are the same. Phoenix using the bahamut skeleton is the not the same as every egi being able to be every egi. one is cosmetic fluff the other is reused assets. They are not equivalent.

Downtown isn't a bad thing as you seem it to be. You call it downtime, i call it build up. Please define your terms. how are oyu losing "value"? summoners are not a market.
Removing cooldown would mean changing a few things to make it work properly. Summon bahamut > trance > trance ends > summon Phoenix > trance > trans ends > summon Odin > trance > trance ends. Where would the downtime here be.
Obviously just flat removing the cooldown on trance using the current SMN kit would not fix anything. and neither will anything you recommend with the current box of legos.

Ghosting is not as big of a problem on the demis. you lose maybe 1 attack. You don't lose enkindle, you don't lose a ruin stack(s), you don't lose devotion. the demis do not have to run into range to attack, they don't have to move when the boss moves, they don't have to chase things. They are avaible as soon as you push the bottom and start slaming their abilites.