Thread: Astro changes 5.1

Originally Posted by Heilstos

Hey Sora,

For this "Problem" I have a solution : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...59XMDFTe4/edit

And for the PC-gamers: http://bit.ly/34uEh9d

I hope the ideas can help asts whos have problem to play out the cards

While this is helpful, and I appreciate the work and thought put into it, no skill should require this amount of set up just to use optimally/without inducing carpal tunnel in a person’s thumb. The Play and Minor Arcana systems are inherently flawed in their design and execution—personally, I’m of the opinion the entire card system is flawed, but Play/Minor Arcana really highlight some of the more glaring issues with these new single-target cards.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I can easily see why all this would end up an issue for controller, but I see M&KB players considering it an issue too and I have to wonder... why? With a mouse, we can consistently use Draw on the very GCD (gap) it refreshes, and Play it on the next, on the correct player, without delay. Between Minor Arcana and 3 stacks of Redraw, I'm far more likely than not to have a perfect Divination every time, often even when spending Sleeve Draw on Crowns for my two (lead) damage-dealers over the same Divination timing.

We could mitigate some issues by removing Draw itself, instead passively generating a new card every 30 seconds (or even allowing us to bank our current card for up to a minute such that we get our next instantly if held for 30+ seconds), but that, too, would likely be considered clunky due to the reduced player input in its timing making it feel... awkwardly loose.

Or, we could look at universal changes, such as allowing for certain actions even during animation locks. Pet actions would be an obvious place for this, but so would future rapid stance-swaps or, for AST, card manipulation.

But, I have a hard time, as a M&KB player for whom the cards feel smoothly busy rather than wonky or invasive, seeing how its entire system could be considered flawed. There's plenty to help it, sure, but is it flawed from a fundamental level? I don't personally think so.

I can’t speak on KB+M users, as I have always played this game on controller, but I always thought that they would have the benefit of mouse-over macros for this, which would be significantly smoother than an entire macro-hotbar setup. I could be wrong, but I saw ASTs play with mouse-over for cards even back in HW and SB. I figured that such would be the same with ShB.

However, that still doesn’t excuse that it’s terrible on controller users, thereby supporting the notion that the system itself is flawed. You can’t say a system is not flawed simply because it works well on a KB+M setup. It doesn’t work well on the other system—a system that the developers try really hard to flow as smoothly as possible compared to the other setup—thereby making it imperfect. Controller users have to supposedly set up an entire macro setup to use AST’s main gimmick in an optimal fashion; meanwhile, KB+M users get to have a single macro (mouse-over) by comparison, with no carpal tunnel of the thumb involved. How can you say that’s not an inherent flaw in the system?

This is to say nothing about Sleeve Draw and how awful it can be on controller, and that optimal execution still requires one to activate Lightspeed (for both KB+M and controller users), thereby taking the skill away from being used in a more versatile fashion (e.g., movement, MP conservation, faster Raises + MP conservation, etc.).

The Draw system before ShB was never this convoluted to manage on a controller scheme. Even when one was deploying a single-target card or using the old Minor Arcana.

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Have you considered that this might not be a limitation of AST, but a limitation of controller?

If it is a limitation of controllers, than that's on the devs for not making a system that both controller and K+M can use effectively, considering they have a huge margin of people who play this game on console.

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Have you considered that this might not be a limitation of AST, but a limitation of controller?

Given that no other job forced this sort of thing from 2.0 to 5.1 on controller players, yes i would say it is a limitation on the design of AST not on the controller, they fundamentally made it worse to play for controller players especially when going for optimal settings. This iteration isn't even our most complex or busiest just the most frustrating

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Have you considered that this might not be a limitation of AST, but a limitation of controller?

This game is designed for both PC and console users, meaning that the developers need to consider that any and all systems flow smoothly on both setups they have programmed this game to use: controller, and keyboard/mouse. Now, the controller setup for FFXIV is honestly really good—KB+M offers no inherent advantage in the majority of situations over controller, and vise-versa. Virtually every other job can be played with very little reliance on macros on both systems, but AST requires controller players to have a plethora of macros just to optimize its main gimmick. And, somehow, that’s now the fault of the controller?

A job flows well on one setup, but not the other. So we should shift the blame to the second system, despite no other job experiencing any limitations like AST has? I’m sorry, but that doesn’t seem logical.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Hardly, because of the lost queuing functionality. You'd be at least as well off just clicking on your next target mid-cast, queuing the skill on that target, and then clicking the next. I've done both, but mouseover functionality at best comes out even.

Mouse-over is still far smoother than what controller users have to deal with: either D-pad spam or 7 different macros in 8-man content just to toss out a single-target buff. The frequency in which we have to use the cards makes this problem stick out far worse than any other single-targeted ability.

Easily. Because it's not unique. The same massive disparity between ease of play between K&MB and Controller exists for almost every aspect of healing. It's just more pronounced because you're having to spot-cast, which is mostly (an oddly) absent from most XIV healer gameplay.

This is not true. There is no other job in this game that requires a slew of macros in lieu of repeated D-pad mashing in order to play optimally—even those like DRG that have targeted skills like Dragon Sight. No other healer requires a person to set up up to 7 different macros for a single skill the way AST does. This is a problem that lies exclusively with the system the developers designed for AST.

Make no mistake, I've been pushing for revised controller functionality since ARR. Taking up a healer in 8-man content is largely what made me stop bothering with a controller altogether. But, that's a game-wide issue, not one unique to Cards.

I’ve never experienced the amount of clunky gameplay with any job I’ve played in this game aside from AST—and I’ve played all of the jobs in some capacity. I regularly heal 4-man, 8-man, and 24-man content, and I’ve never experienced this huge issue that you seem to be describing here. I’ve certainly never had to have multiple macros to control the main gimmick of any of my jobs—and I’d wager most others have not as well.

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Mouse-over is still far smoother than what controller users have to deal with.

I never said it wasn't. I was just clarifying that it's not access to mouseover macros that make mouse usage strong. It's the mouse itself.

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This game is designed for both PC and console users, meaning that the developers need to consider that any and all systems flow smoothly on both setups they have programmed this game to use: controller, and keyboard/mouse.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Now, the controller setup for FFXIV is honestly really good—KB+M offers no inherent advantage in the majority of situations over controller, and vise-versa.

Disagreed.

Cast Lustrate on Alliance B member 4 in the space of your cast and then return to your former target. Go. I'll wait, since you're on controller.

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Virtually every other job can be played with very little reliance on macros on both systems...

...if and only if you ignore all situations that may require immediate targeting of an ally not immediately to your left or right tab-positionally or immediately above or below on the party or enemy list...

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

A job flows well on one setup, but not the other. So we should shift the blame to the second system, despite no other job experiencing any limitations like AST has? I’m sorry, but that doesn’t seem logical.

An inferior means of control being largely excusable just because the game is usually so lenient (especially if your m&kb cohealer covers for you) doesn't suddenly make the system fine. Spot-heal one in 8 members who took unexpected damage. Silence via Head Graze the one in 10 mobs casting a dangerous spell or as necessary to draw it towards the tank. The controller, much like tab-targeting, shows its shortcomings in any situation that requires rapid targeting among a high number of choices. That it's finally more obvious doesn't mean the issue wasn't there.

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is not true. There is no other job in this game that requires a slew of macros in lieu of repeated D-pad mashing in order to play optimally—even those like DRG that have targeted skills like Dragon Sight. No other healer requires a person to set up up to 7 different macros for a single skill the way AST does. This is a problem that lies exclusively with the system the developers designed for AST.

There's not a single other job that requires rapid targeting? Are you absolutely certain of that? Absolutely certain?

Let's ignore for the fact that the quote you're replying to specifically is referring to healing tasks and party- or alliance-targeting. True, Dragon Sight, Nascent Flash, Intervention, Heart of Stone, the Blackest Night, and Nature's Minne don't typically need multiple macros, since they only have one target they'd usually need to affect (lead dps, co-tank, or target of target), but would you, as a controller player, want to handle any of those without a macro? On M&KB, it's a non-issue, even if the party list gets scrambled or the one I need to affect isn't target-of-target when they normally would be. Makes zero difference. I move my mouse. I click. I move it back. I click. It's done in the .5s queue time of any give skill.

But, no, there's no advantage there in mouse and keyboard. None. Everything except AST, a controller can do as well as mouse & keyboard. Not a control scheme issue at all, only a card one. /s

You realize had Expanded Balance not been so overpowered, you'd have had the exact same problem with the old card system? Sorry, but that too would have required rapid targeting. Likely more so, in fact.

TL;DR: It is a controller problem, and if you ever want to see more interesting healer tasks in encounters, handling AST cards is the minimum of what controllers need to be capable. Otherwise we should just give up the charade of parity between control systems altogether or accept that all future fights will be bottlenecked in the same way as you're finally noticing with AST cards.