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  1. #1
    Player
    Wolfius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    22
    Character
    Wolfius Auron
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    Nocturnal/Diurnal are the reason I play AST, the versatility of two different play styles in one job.
    I also play on controller, and these changes, both in 5.0 and 5.1 have been a huge improvement over the SB version in terms of playing cards and minor arcana.
    I read people use macros for playing cards... wtf?
    Makes the job more manageable on full parties instead of toggling up and down the members which time and helps watching your soroundings... Still no more lord and lady animations and more macros, I'm letting the macrologian take a rest and try another job till they get their stuff together and give what the players want
    (5)

  2. #2
    Player
    Wolfius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    22
    Character
    Wolfius Auron
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    Nocturnal/Diurnal are the reason I play AST, the versatility of two different play styles in one job.
    I also play on controller, and these changes, both in 5.0 and 5.1 have been a huge improvement over the SB version in terms of playing cards and minor arcana.
    I read people use macros for playing cards... wtf?
    Makes the job more manageable on full parties instead of toggling up and down the members which saves time and helps watching your soroundings... Still no more lord and lady animations and more macros, I'm letting the macrologian take a rest and try another job till they get their stuff together and give what the players want
    (2)

  3. #3
    Player
    Ahrijlaken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    70
    Character
    Ahri Eija
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 76
    - I still never use Nocturnal stance ... even when i play with WHM, shield exist to save live and they are too weak to be noticable. The hybride part is the identity of AST but we play most of the time in regen stance.

    - Give us back the possibility to use card ( get symbole ) outside of battle.

    - Give us back our stun.

    - Give us motivation to use the good card combination. 4% when you don't care, 5% when you care a little and 6% when you focus your effort to get 3 symbole .... 4 to 6% ? It should be 1% with 1 symbole and 10% with 3 symbole.
    (1)
    Last edited by Ahrijlaken; 11-01-2019 at 05:29 PM.

  4. #4
    Player
    Brandedblade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    841
    Character
    Gunther Frey
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    Came here to discuss new AST changes.
    Oh, I see we're still slinging insults at people who are comfortable with the new card system.
    I'll be glad to discuss them with you! So far from my play it has been wonderful! The change to Minor Arcana alone was a massive quality of life improvement. It makes Sleeve far less reliant on Lightspeed (I still combine them in the opener in case I need to do a Redraw or two) and Collective.... just wow. That was a huge buff. It actually feels worth using in pulls now that its potency has been doubled. The damage potency increase feels rather nice, either I got lucky with my expert run yesterday or the extra damage I have now was really noticeable.

    My only main concern now is that their so called solution to addressing the mp issues was not sufficient. Aspected Helios MP cost reduction does feel noticable, but the Noct Aspect Benefic... not so much. I wish they would've at least also touched Malefic since that's the most spammed spell or at the very least throw in an active mp restore. I've seen alot of people throwing out the idea of attaching the MP restore to draw and adding a larger one to Undraw, that is certainly a fun idea.
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    Brandedblade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    841
    Character
    Gunther Frey
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomsmash View Post
    Everything you said makes it self evident what is wrong with your argument.

    There was always a "best" card. There will always be a "best" card. But only if you are a worshipper at the optimal > all altar. That is the sum total of your lack of understanding of our objection.

    We don't give a flying fuck about optimized play. We want engaging play, we want enjoyable play, we want variety to not be bored out of our minds. Most play is NOT optimal. It is improvisation, it is using what works best at that particular instant and that is *gasp* NOT ALWAYS MORE DAMAGE.

    Optimal. Does. Not. Matter. Non-janky does.
    Well unfortunately, I'm in the camp of optimized = interesting play. The fact that AST is currently the most interesting of the healers to optimize my play on is a huge factor of why I love it so much now.
    (1)

  6. #6
    Player
    Crushnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,345
    Character
    Jets Down
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    Nocturnal/Diurnal are the reason I play AST, the versatility of two different play styles in one job.
    I also play on controller, and these changes, both in 5.0 and 5.1 have been a huge improvement over the SB version in terms of playing cards and minor arcana.
    I read people use macros for playing cards... wtf?
    This versatility would be beneficial if it didn't hinder design decisions as much as it currently does, it hinders AST as its kit could never embrace one or the other yet they have routinely over the years added abilities that benefited Diurnal far more than Nocturnal, with ShB being the worst about this, if they wanted to truly keep this versatility Intersection and Neutral should never have been made. With these two abilities they made Diurnal a far better healer than Nocturnal, I honestly believe that right now the devs design AST around Diurnal then tack on Nocturnal, nearly every change they have ever done to AST since 3.0 has benefited Diurnal in some way.

    Right now Diurnal is how AST should be played if doing anything optimally with it, Nocturnal is the "if I have to" stance(some may do it for making healing more engaging but that says more about the healers as a whole than AST specifically) and has been since inception, so as things currently stand deleting Nocturnal would do next to nothing to AST and if cards can lose their individual identity no reason the stances cannot either(i'd rather than be able to support both but after 4-5 years of failure there comes a time where enough is enough just stop trying).

    The way the healer role is currently designed with reactive healer, preventive healer and versatile healer it leaves little room to get a new healer design into FFXIV that bucks the current roles, a new healer would need to go into one of these three groups only giving a choice to one of these groups. Whereas reworking AST into the reactive healer group would allow a second option in the preventive healer group and both groups could be balanced against themselves and then the healer role as a whole. The problem with this is SE does not want to see it that way and is why SCH in its healer kit has only gotten more powerful through the expansions because it must be both a preventive and a reactive healer, yet poor WHM barely gets anything preventive it is nearly all reactive, and lastly AST which is a far better reactive healer than a preventive one yet the latter is continually forced onto it despite it being better if it weren't.

    As for the macros it is for 8 man content due to having to use the dpad up to 4 times to select each party member, it is more beneficial to use a macro as it drastically reduces the button input from doing manually especially during optimization where you need 3 seal divination by the 4th gcd. Normal play shouldn't be an issue but yea optimizing AST on controller is not good and would be the 1st time i say the design team failed to account for both peripherals.
    (8)
    Guy butt is best butt <3

  7. #7
    Player
    MPNZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    691
    Character
    Nephie Elz
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Crushnight View Post
    This versatility would be beneficial if it didn't hinder design decisions as much as it currently does, it hinders AST as its kit could never embrace one or the other yet they have routinely over the years added abilities that benefited Diurnal far more than Nocturnal, with ShB being the worst about this, if they wanted to truly keep this versatility Intersection and Neutral should never have been made. With these two abilities they made Diurnal a far better healer than Nocturnal, I honestly believe that right now the devs design AST around Diurnal then tack on Nocturnal, nearly every change they have ever done to AST since 3.0 has benefited Diurnal in some way.

    Right now Diurnal is how AST should be played if doing anything optimally with it, Nocturnal is the "if I have to" stance(some may do it for making healing more engaging but that says more about the healers as a whole than AST specifically) and has been since inception, so as things currently stand deleting Nocturnal would do next to nothing to AST and if cards can lose their individual identity no reason the stances cannot either(i'd rather than be able to support both but after 4-5 years of failure there comes a time where enough is enough just stop trying).

    The way the healer role is currently designed with reactive healer, preventive healer and versatile healer it leaves little room to get a new healer design into FFXIV that bucks the current roles, a new healer would need to go into one of these three groups only giving a choice to one of these groups. Whereas reworking AST into the reactive healer group would allow a second option in the preventive healer group and both groups could be balanced against themselves and then the healer role as a whole. The problem with this is SE does not want to see it that way and is why SCH in its healer kit has only gotten more powerful through the expansions because it must be both a preventive and a reactive healer, yet poor WHM barely gets anything preventive it is nearly all reactive, and lastly AST which is a far better reactive healer than a preventive one yet the latter is continually forced onto it despite it being better if it weren't.

    As for the macros it is for 8 man content due to having to use the dpad up to 4 times to select each party member, it is more beneficial to use a macro as it drastically reduces the button input from doing manually especially during optimization where you need 3 seal divination by the 4th gcd. Normal play shouldn't be an issue but yea optimizing AST on controller is not good and would be the 1st time i say the design team failed to account for both peripherals.
    In general: the shield and regen healer dichotomy has to like go if they want healer design to improve. Every AST in DS just kind of proves that already. And, the toes-stepping is really annoying
    (1)
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    Ewwwwwww, it's all glowwy again!

  8. #8
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Lavender Beds, Ward 13, Plot 41
    Posts
    7,339
    Character
    Hyomin Park
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandedblade View Post
    Well unfortunately, I'm in the camp of optimized = interesting play. The fact that AST is currently the most interesting of the healers to optimize my play on is a huge factor of why I love it so much now.
    To optimize AST now means janky play. Play/Minor Arcana is terrible—especially for controller players who do not get the benefit of using Mouse-Over macros for the cards and either have to use their D-Pad up to 4 times > press Play/Minor Arcana, or have multiple macros to assign card buffs to individual party members, removing the need to D-pad spam. Sleeve Draw is still a hot mess to use. Now, you don’t deal with card RNG, because all cards are boring and homogenized in terms of effects—you just deal with Seal RNG instead. There was very little change in that regard: the RNG just shifted.

    Honestly, I have a lot of fun on AST....when I start to ignore its main gimmick. That should not be the case.
    (14)
    Sage | Astrologian | Dancer

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  9. #9
    Player
    Maltothoris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    772
    Character
    Malto Thoris
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Another thing to think about is that Noct stance has almost always had a trade-off with its buffs while Diur stance barely had any and has only gotten straight buffs. Granted they had to with some of the shield percentages but still something to think about. Noct lost the regen but the changes to Celestial Opp, to aspected Helios and Collective with only staright buffs to Diurnal and trade offs with Noct hasn't really increased the competitiveness of Noct sect vs Sch. SO I wouldn't be surprised if we got another "adjustment" to Noct sect in 5.15 or 5.2.
    (1)

  10. #10
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    13,020
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandedblade View Post
    Well unfortunately, I'm in the camp of optimized = interesting play. The fact that AST is currently the most interesting of the healers to optimize my play on is a huge factor of why I love it so much now.
    (Looking at your past posts over this thread, which mostly boiled down to white knighting the dev's removal of most of AST's former card-based layers of optimization via (1) RNG-management through Spread and RR or (2) situational or strategic re-weighting.)

    Oh, the irony... But, glad you've had a change of heart, I guess?

    Don't get me wrong, I like Divination. I love ensuring I get the 3-seal effect stacked atop a Sleeve Draw's worth of Crowns on the dps. But, we had just as much optimization involved back then atop a greater variety of outputs. To call it, therefore, poor design while saying you enjoy the unification of card effects because it gives you much to optimize is contradictory at best.
    (9)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 11-02-2019 at 08:41 PM. Reason: typo

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