Red Mage "better"??

[Silverquick]

So... Red Mage's damage is good if you use your actions right? Color me surprised.

Additionally, 3 Moulinets is weak compared to the true potential of RDM's AoE. Build up to 90/90 on the first pack, go into the second pack, pop Embolden, use 2 Moulinets, Manafication, then 5 more Moulinets and a Swiftcast Impact. Enemies just melt when you do that.

That wasn't really my point no, the point is the complete opposite... that because the guage doesn't fill fast enough your melee options become a little too limited, because they're linked to the guage, ergo, the real solution for RDM is to adjust how fast the guage fills not necessarily Potency increases.

And what you just brought up gets into the Supercombos that I described before so a little out of scope for what I was talking about... still that's a great combo move.

I am talking just the ability to purely use Melee and Spells in combination more frequently as Duelle is talking about so you don't just end up as an RDM Turret as Duelle is claiming.

Because honestly as both you and I demonstrated, the capability for a Red Mage to be very flexible is indeed in there... but get locked into play due to not enough leeway on the Limit Guage.

[Gruntler]

That wasn't really my point no, the point is the complete opposite... that because the guage doesn't fill fast enough your melee options become a little too limited, because they're linked to the guage, ergo, the real solution for RDM is to adjust how fast the guage fills not necessarily Potency increases.

And what you just brought up gets into the Supercombos that I described before so a little out of scope for what I was talking about... still that's a great combo move.

I am talking just the ability to purely use Melee and Spells in combination more frequently as Duelle is talking about so you don't just end up as an RDM Turret as Duelle is claiming.

Because honestly as both you and I demonstrated, the capability for a Red Mage to be very flexible is indeed in there... but get locked into play due to not enough leeway on the Limit Guage.

It takes the same amount of gcds to get enough mana to use an Enchanted Moulli in Shadowbringers as it did in Stormblood.

[Duelle]

Well, the reason I bring this up is because there is actually more potential for melee side of RDM and NOT just as a turret, but all of it is tied to the Mana Gauge.

While I gave one example above in the things I was talking about regarding the Super Combo of Melee + VerFlare/VerHoly... there's more than that.

While I realize the focus tends to be on Raid damage, the Red Mage has very good potential for melee damage in other circumstances. When we are talking about plain old clearing dungeon trash. While just sitting back and using Scatter + Ver II, much like Summoner he's actually really good at AoE... but there's a trick to it... you have to CaC + Enchanted Moulenet when they start getting down to half to finish them off quick (which it does do).... IF you can manage to build up the Mana Guage to 60.

But again all of those melee related options cannot happen unless the Mana Guage fills up faster.

To an extent, I agree with what you're saying. You want increased mana gains to make use of melee more frequent, which is a commendable intention. Barring a complete overhaul of how the job plays, that probably is the best we can hope for.

That said, there's a couple of things to keep in mind. As I said, the mana values of most spells are what they are for a reason. Assuming you're not banking Verfire/Verstone Ready when you hit 80/80, mana gains from melee combo => Verholy/Verflare puts you within a couple of points from going beyond the balance threshold between white and black mana. You'd have to increase the threshold or remove it entirely because otherwise you might end up unbalanced either after the melee combo or during regular gameplay.

Additionally, increasing melee combo frequency means you might need to nerf the enchanted weaponskills, though this depends on how much you're increasing melee frequency (along with how that affects overall DPS output) and where the devs want RDM to be compared to other jobs. It'd be an interesting experiment to see what would happen if you increased Jolt to something like 5 mana, Veraero/Verthunder to 13, Verfire/Verstone to 11, and Scorch to 10.

This is slightly unrelated, but AoE could be further supplemented by having Moulinet interact with Impact, which in turn could help RDM in AoE situations while also playing into my wish of seeing sword skills and spells used together. An idea I had (admittedly meant for my RDM writeup) was for Moulinet to grant a buff that makes Impact to deal slightly more damage (15-20 potency increase at most) and reduces its GCD to 1.5s, but prevents it from generating mana. So the AoE rotation would be alternating between Moulinet and buffed Impact until you run out of mana. The only downsides I see are that AoE rotations would be longer and it might end up being a bit too powerful (since you're doubling the length of the AoE burst phase).

[Maero]

And what about Embolden, should we not push for it to affect both magical and physical dps? Not just one's own magical dmg.
It is not like RM would be OP if they went this route.

[wereotter]

And what about Embolden, should we not push for it to affect both magical and physical dps? Not just one's own magical dmg.
It is not like RM would be OP if they went this route.

I always wanted this... as well as I was never a huge fan of the fact that the potency of embolden falls off over time. I would have taken being a lower initial potency increase if it was just the same increase for the full duration.

[Leidiriv]

I always wanted this... as well as I was never a huge fan of the fact that the potency of embolden falls off over time. I would have taken being a lower initial potency increase if it was just the same increase for the full duration.

Funnily enough, the higher starting potency is why Embolden's so powerful. When used properly, extremely potent hits like Stardiver, Barrage + Refulgent Arrow, and Midare Setsugekka/Tsubame Setsugekka end up in the 10% or 8% brackets, and all that really ends up in the 4% and 2% are the hits that would have been weaker anyway.

[Duelle]

And what about Embolden, should we not push for it to affect both magical and physical dps? Not just one's own magical dmg.
It is not like RM would be OP if they went this route.

If you mean buffing the RDM's own physical and magical damage, I don't see why not. The only things benefitting from increased physical damage would be autos, Contre, Fleche and Engagement/Corps/Displacement.

[wereotter]

If you mean buffing the RDM's own physical and magical damage, I don't see why not. The only things benefitting from increased physical damage would be autos, Contre, Fleche and Engagement/Corps/Displacement.

I think this is more about having Embolden buff all damage. That means that other casters as well as healers will get a boost as well as ninjutsu, Holy Spirit, and all the other magical attacks that physical DPS deal

[ReiMakoto]

I think this is more about having Embolden buff all damage. That means that other casters as well as healers will get a boost as well as ninjutsu, Holy Spirit, and all the other magical attacks that physical DPS deal

On one hand having it effect everything makes it pretty much the best buff in the game, on the other hand rdm is already in need of a buff compared to smn. The only "issue" is it could create some really dumb synergy with blm, burning 2 or maybe 3 polyglot stacks during embolden for massive multiplicative buff stacking on the 2 min lineup, but i dont necessarily think party comps that arn't double melee are a problem so just my take

[Akiudo]

On one hand having it effect everything makes it pretty much the best buff in the game, on the other hand rdm is already in need of a buff compared to smn. The only "issue" is it could create some really dumb synergy with blm, burning 2 or maybe 3 polyglot stacks during embolden for massive multiplicative buff stacking on the 2 min lineup, but i dont necessarily think party comps that arn't double melee are a problem so just my take

well making it effect everything doesn't even need to be a buff, you could aswell make it a big weaker at the same time, bring it down from 10 to 8 and falling off from there or whatever (buff redmage elsewhere, i mean buff it anyways (and bring summoner down a bit at least)) i would think making it effect every kind of damage would mostly be usefull in a "less effected by composition" way, i mean double casters is the exception anyways but really, there's zero need for extra encouragements to take double melee