Red Mage "better"??

[Duelle]

ingame it seems like I am the only Red Mage fan

I don't think we'd be having any of these discussions if we weren't fans of the job. Being a fan of something does not mean you have to absolutely love everything about it nor does it make the object of fandom exempt from criticism.

If you're happy with where the job currently is, more power to you, but it does not invalidate anyone who has problems with the design or sees issues that need to be ironed out.

We finally stepped up our profession and don't borrow skills like before (Ver[skill])

Attaching a prefix to spell names doesn't do much to negate that RDM is still borrowing spells from other jobs, which is something that has come with the territory since the beginning. As such, I wouldn't disdain at the idea of RDM borrowing things from other jobs.

That said, modern hybrids combine their different aspects through mechanics or interactions between said aspects. In that regard, RDM has yet to "step up", as even the FFXIV RDM segregates sword from spell instead of having the job use them in tandem.

our sword - the Rapier - is finally a real blade

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I hear that we "need more damage" or "more mobility" or "getting Vercure removed in favour of damage". Stuff like this makes me die inside because that would not only be wrong, but also just means those players are free to change their profession instead of forcing RDM to be something it was never was.

Keep in mind that RDM is classified as DPS. The primary role of DPS and what largely justifies their presence in a group is their contributions in making the peoples fall down. This is true even for DPS hybrids.

Also, you can't blame people that ask for the removal of Vercure and such when the developers themselves seem to use utility as a reason for letting RDM trail behind as it did before 5.1. When utility starts to get in the way of a job's primary role (intentionally or unintentionally), the expected reaction would be to ask for a change in utility so that the primary role can be buffed to compensate for that loss. Whether it is the only way to address the issue is an entirely different matter.

Duelle for example, says in his signature that we are supposed to have more melee, but that would require us to have more defensive stats or health but we are still mages, so I think it makes sense to have a short melee phase.

Something you and the "mage" argument people tend to miss is that you can't look at a hybrid that is part warrior, part black mage, and part white mage in the same light as your run-of-the-mill squishy caster.

If we go by prior incarnations of the job, RDM trades magical power for the ability to be a little hardier than your average BLM or WHM and have melee at their disposal.

Statwise the job is locked into "of Casting" gear, which I acknowledge is a problem because of HP and Defense gains from gear. Hence why I used to suggest putting RDM on Aiming or Striking/Maiming gear instead of Casting. Since that ship has sailed, I'd suggest adjusting something under the hood (read: native HP and defense scaling/multipliers), though that has its own risks.

Rapier duels are quick, it's a charge at the enemy and then attacking swiftly

Rapier duels also include binds, a lot of footwork/dodging and end in one-hit kills (generally speaking; takes a while for a person to bleed out from a rapier wound). None of which apply to combat in-game, so you're stretching things a bit there.

I'm not sure why'd you bring up duels, since the job's gameplay is very far removed from them. Specially since the job was designed to spam magic from a distance until hitting an arbitrary point that then allows use the sword.

The last time I did the math, we had 70% Magic and 30% Close-Quarters combat in terms of potency. I think that's not quite a turret.

As I said before, prior to Scorch and the changes to Acceleration, RDM gameplay comprised of 18 GCDs spamming spells vs 3 GCDs swinging a sword. It's still a far cry from where it needs to be for me to change my signature.

Then I read about damage. As said: About 9% difference to BLM according to those FFLogs from before. If it gets less, people would question why they would choose BLM then except for aesthetics.

Faster kills, for one. For two that if your group knows what they're doing (which is the case for raids/statics), things like Verraise see little to no use.

Well I do have to give summoners a break here... every expansion at the outset they get nerfed hard... so bad they end up nearly at the bottom of the pile.

Part of the issue here is that SMN has seen some sort of big change in the direction it is taken between expansions. I've called it schizophrenic design in the past, and it seems have become a tradition for SMN at this point.

I don't think the Potency Increase was the real solution here... but the Guage filling faster to do more of the Red Mage version of the Super Combo is the solution the way the Summoner is able to is the solution. Like a much shorter CD on Manafication.

While I can see this, it would require messing with all aspects of how white/black mana are generated, which is tricky since the mana values for most spells are set at very specific numbers for a reason.

[Silverquick]

While I can see this, it would require messing with all aspects of how white/black mana are generated, which is tricky since the mana values for most spells are set at very specific numbers for a reason.

Well, the reason I bring this up is because there is actually more potential for melee side of RDM and NOT just as a turret, but all of it is tied to the Mana Guage.

While I gave one example above in the things I was talking about regarding the Super Combo of Melee + VerFlare/VerHoly... there's more than that.

While I realize the focus tends to be on Raid damage, the Red Mage has very good potential for melee damage in other circumstances. When we are talking about plain old clearing dungeon trash. While just sitting back and using Scatter + Ver II, much like Summoner he's actually really good at AoE... but there's a trick to it... you have to CaC + Enchanted Moulenet when they start getting down to half to finish them off quick (which it does do).... IF you can manage to build up the Mana Guage to 60.

But again all of those melee related options cannot happen unless the Mana Guage fills up faster.

[AbelArchaniEA]

Anyone else feel like the potency increases for Red Mage are sad increases? I was expecting more.. disappointing SE...

News Flash! RDM is not supposed to be a superior Dps class. #1 it’s super easy and #2 it’s a support dps

[Leidiriv]

News Flash! RDM is not supposed to be a superior Dps class. #1 it’s super easy and #2 it’s a support dps

so... if RDM is super easy why does it have the second highest DPS variance according to FFlogs, right behind BLM? Also, the support DPS argument falls apart when you consider how massively SMN was buffed in this last patch. Not that I agree with how much SMN was buffed, since total rDPS contribution between the classes should be within like 200 of each other at the highest end but eh.

Also, the buffs to RDM were pretty massive in their own right as I mentioned in previous posts.

[Writheheart]

so... if RDM is super easy why does it have the second highest DPS variance according to FFlogs, right behind BLM?

I messed up before & didn't quote lol, didn't know how to fix
just for my own clarification, as I had put off RDM because of perceived easiness despite it being my favourite FF flavoured job, bar none; this variance is essentially the difference between getting down the basics and then mastering the job? (alongside doing a big boss battle of course lol). that is to say, despite the rotation being easy to get into, once you get it down you can learn some tricks to raise the skill ceiling, and it isn't quite as easy to play at the highest of percentiles?
your comment really super caught my eye, kinda wish I could PM you and not sound stupid in public but oh well lolo. I'd super appreciate a reply! frankly this would solve my forever swappin' and changin' main Job issue haha

[JanVanding]

Your argument would hold more weight if you would remember that Stormblood, where Displacement was introduced, was also the patch where damage was removed from all other things like Repelling Shot.

SE saw disengagement tools, and removed damage from them so that they would only be used for their utility. The assumption then is that utility disengages would therefore have no damage and only utility.

RDM has damage on it, and later had damage increased on it, because it's meant to be damage that introduces a positional tension in the kit. You want to be close for, like, all the reasons, because that's how this game fn works, but one of our ogcds pushes us back. Then they introduced Engagement so that we'd have an option that alleviates some of that tension, at the cost of some small damage.

Trying to divine developer intent is surprisingly easy if you look at a broader picture. Having a disengage added with damage in the *same patch* that damage was taken off all other disengages, should tell you that the intent for Disengage is different than the others. The message should be loud and clear. People have asked for that Disengage to have the damage removed specific to make it that utility that you want, and SE's response was to up the damage and add a second damage tool to use when you can't use it.

You can pretend it's for zipping out of melee all you want, but SE's been sending messages for two years that it's not their intent.



The funny thing is, if you actually played it optimally, it's not a turret, and the design lets you not play it this way. You've locked yourself into a mode of thinking that's caused you to simultaneously want to play the job in a way that mixes melee and magic (which you do do, in optimal play) and believe that the design is for the non-optimal play, where you're standing around like a turret.

It's hard to argue with someone on design intent when they're not playing the job the way it was designed.

Aren't they literally losing autos if they fight like a turret? Pretty sure the RDM like the DNC is supposed to fight in a "pocket" in front of ranged, just behind melee at the very tip of auto range (so the get autos in between casts) with their back dash being more a fast "get out of the mechanics" skill like Leyline.

[Gruntler]

Aren't they literally losing autos if they fight like a turret? Pretty sure the RDM like the DNC is supposed to fight in a "pocket" in front of ranged, just behind melee at the very tip of auto range (so the get autos in between casts) with their back dash being more a fast "get out of the mechanics" skill like Leyline.

Auto-attacks do such a small amount that your total autos over a Hades-length fight comes out to less than a Corps-a-Corps. Each auto is at best, one potency each, and it does not scale with gear.

You're close because it makes healing more efficient and helps you deal with certain mechanics easier.

[MrKusakabe]

First of all: This thread is fantastic to read through; ingame it seems like I am the only Red Mage fan (even though I am somewhat behind story-wise *cough*), probably a Zodiark thing?

I often (too often) think about RDM and I love not only the FFXIVs version of it, which is finally a real Red Mage and not those pathetic hackjobs and mishmash we had before. We finally stepped up our profession and don't borrow skills like before (Ver[skill]), our sword - the Rapier - is finally a real blade (Tactics for example had Florets, which are laughable) and visually, we have been gifted by beautiful audio/visuals. That's why I am somehow a bit baffled that are still unhappy about the current state. I said it in a "general discussion" thread, but wasn't the difference to the main damage-dealing caster about 9%? Now it's even less after the buffs, but I don't have the FFlogs comparison at hand.

Square Enix is the only company that I know that respects their own design decisions. Red Mage is known for being a "Jack of all Trades - But the Master of none", even on external sites such as TV Tropes. That's because the concept of our beautiful, fantastic profession is old. Red Mages exist since 1987! And I am impressed that Square Enix gave us this incredibly beatiful and fun profession for XIV. I hear that we "need more damage" or "more mobility" or "getting Vercure removed in favour of damage". Stuff like this makes me die inside because that would not only be wrong, but also just means those players are free to change their profession instead of forcing RDM to be something it was never was.

I am not so much into hardcore theorycrafting as I am ingame a normal player, while you guys are certainly much better and play in more competitive environment, but it does not matter how I look at XIV's RDM, I just love it. It seems so complete! Other developers tend to make multi-purpose professions terrible, but Square Enix is on a tightrope right now - and manage to carefully balance it in all directions. And is doing a great job at that! We have fine mobility, we deal fine damage, we can decide wether to fight ranged or closely (e.g. when a boss starts to go apeshit), we can heal fine, we can resurrect, we have Dualcast - And we have our place!

Look, Duelle for example, says in his signature that we are supposed to have more melee, but that would require is to have more defensive stats or health - but we are still mages, so I think it makes sense to have a short melee phase. Rapier duels are quick, it's a charge at the enemy and then attacking swiftly (or evading - that's called a Riposte btw; our opener skill ) and then going back until one is dead. At least real life history. The last time I did the math, we had 70% Magic and 30% Close-Quarters combat in terms of potency. I think that's not quite a turret.

Then I read about damage. As said: About 9% difference to BLM according to those FFLogs from before. If it gets less, people would question why they would choose BLM then except for aesthetics. And want nerfs for that.

Red Mage made me come back from GW2 after I quitted it. I am not here to abruptly end your discussion from the outside, because I highly enjoy reading the input of other RDM fans, but sometimes to me it reads you might forget how beautiful our profession is - audiovisual, our artifact gear, the entire philosophy behind Red Mages. I think I never had so much fun in a videogame, and I have the bad feeling that if Square Enix changes more, this balance could cause an avalanche of changes that cause a irreparable mess.

Sincerely,

[Leidiriv]

Regarding the Reprise thing, that's exactly what the skill's built for. It's meant as a mana dump, a movement tool, a way to use cooldowns while minimizing drifting. It's insanely versatile and not a bandaid at all. In fact, you're supposed to use around 2-3 Reprises between Manafications in the 110s rotation to deal with the natural overcap from Manafic. We just use it proactively to serve other purposes at the same time.