Highly Notorious Monsters

[AttacKat]

But like anything in RL you get what you put into it. ...

If someone puts in 8-12 hrs a day more then someone else they should get better things, if not there is something wrong. It goes the same way with literally everything else in life. The more you put into it the more you get.

To borrow your quote and to mention an important point where this thinking is a myth so far for FF14 ...

How many of you have gotten tens, maybe even hundreds, the steel key from Nathalan's wolf camp, and still never got the mask? I have one of those mask, on my 2nd try.

One major factor you guys are forgetting, is the RNG SE had in place for 1.0, and that totally nullifies the "play time" factor you guys are claiming to be so important. Ever tried to get an Iffy weapon, and after 10+ tries, a noob comes into your party and gets one on their first win? Again, the RNG totally nullifies how much time you have put into this.

Pop window, combined with the RNG that existed in 1.0, really doesn't equate to more time = better equipment.

As is, the loot system is unfair, and hopefully with the changes coming, we will see a more well balanced loot system in term of giving out the rewards.

jc

[Kryptic]

To borrow your quote and to mention an important point where this thinking is a myth so far for FF14 ...

How many of you have gotten tens, maybe even hundreds, the steel key from Nathalan's wolf camp, and still never got the mask? I have one of those mask, on my 2nd try.

One major factor you guys are forgetting, is the RNG SE had in place for 1.0, and that totally nullifies the "play time" factor you guys are claiming to be so important. Ever tried to get an Iffy weapon, and after 10+ tries, a noob comes into your party and gets one on their first win? Again, the RNG totally nullifies how much time you have put into this.

Pop window, combined with the RNG that existed in 1.0, really doesn't equate to more time = better equipment.

As is, the loot system is unfair, and hopefully with the changes coming, we will see a more well balanced loot system in term of giving out the rewards.

jc

You aren't getting it, I understand the range there is and the chances of getting equipment in 14. I'm not suggesting to make HNMs a priority that everyone needs to do, the chances in FFXI were probably 10x worse than FFXI when it came to the super rare items like the defending ring, ridill etc. But when you finally got one of those it was the best feeling in the entire world. It took me over a year to get a dalmatica but when I finally got it, it was the best feeling ever, even though it was only a refresh piece. You can still edit the %s for drops on the HNMs but I don't want the best drop off of every kill, nor do I want to see one every other day. That's what doesn't make getting epic equipment fun. When you see some badass walking around in town in FFXI with some serious equipment you know he busted his ass and didn't have anything handed to him. That's all I am asking, I don't care if it takes 10 tries to see a great piece of equipment. Hell I remember going months without seeing a Ridill, but that's what made it a great piece of gear (obviously including the stats).

[Alhanelem]

I'm not suggesting to make HNMs a priority that everyone needs to do, the chances in FFXI were probably 10x worse than FFXI when it came to the super rare items like the defending ring, ridill etc. But when you finally got one of those it was the best feeling in the entire world. It took me over a year to get a dalmatica but when I finally got it, it was the best feeling ever, even though it was only a refresh piece. You can still edit the %s for drops on the HNMs but I don't want the best drop off of every kill, nor do I want to see one every other day.

I understand what you're trying to say, but why can't we get that "ooh, shiny!" through fun and well-thought-out content instead of spending hours standing around waiting for something to pop and roll a random number to see who gets the 1% chance at an item drop in the ensuing provoke/dia/claim cluster#&$%? You don't need any of that crap to have fun exciting, really hard battles that have a small chance to give you a rare drop and subsequent "best feeling in the world". world bosses don't have to use obnoxious spawn mechanics to achieve the things that you yourself desire. It can be made a less stressful experience for *everyone* while still giving the "ooh, shiny!" effect.

That's all I am asking, I don't care if it takes 10 tries to see a great piece of equipment.

Most people were lucky to get 1 try at that great piece of equipment, what with all the botting and cheating FFXI had at "traditional" HNMs. They can come up with a better content design such that everyone has a fair shot (by fair I mean equal, not fair as in "fair drop rate"), rather than the content being designed such that the number of people that have the rare item is determined by the difficulty, not the number of people with the patience to sit through boring hours of non-gameplay.

I don't remember who wrote it but someone said just make one big monster and let everyone kill it and whoever gets the drop gets it. How is that fun or challenging? You just send an infinite barrage of bodies at it until it dies. The point of HNMs more so the kings was so lay down a strategy to fight it.

1) The fate system does not automatically imply every battle will be a zombie or mass attack clusterbomb. Also, you're kidding yourself if you think most XI HNMs required much strategy- In most cases, there was just one strategy, and generally only one moment (low HP) that required any change in tactics.

I fail to see what's fun or challenging about standing at a pop spot for several hours then having a low-ping contest with dozens of other people to see who can press provoke first.

[AttacKat]

Oh, I got your point and agrees with that effort = reward.

In borrowing your quote, I was just trying to remind people that up to this point, effort doesn't equate to the hours you put in. So that in itself is a major issue SE needs to address, and they will.

But one major disagreement within the past few pages is that some considers camping = effort, while others considers pre-conditions to induce a force-pop = effort.

I do not believe those that are against the pop-window method are against putting in the effort. It just seems we have different meanings for "effort" in the discussion. To me, pop-window is just waiting around and is effortless, as I do not have to do anything, other then be there when the time is up.

jc

[Kryptic]

I understand what you're trying to say, but why can't we get that "ooh, shiny!" through fun and well-thought-out content instead of spending hours standing around waiting for something to pop and roll a random number to see who gets the 1% chance at an item drop in the ensuing provoke/dia/claim cluster#&$%? You don't need any of that crap to have fun exciting, really hard battles that have a small chance to give you a rare drop and subsequent "best feeling in the world". world bosses don't have to use obnoxious spawn mechanics to achieve the things that you yourself desire. It can be made a less stressful experience for *everyone* while still giving the "ooh, shiny!" effect.

Most people were lucky to get 1 try at that great piece of equipment, what with all the botting and cheating FFXI had at "traditional" HNMs. They can come up with a better content design such that everyone has a fair shot (by fair I mean equal, not fair as in "fair drop rate"), rather than the content being designed such that the number of people that have the rare item is determined by the difficulty, not the number of people with the patience to sit through boring hours of non-gameplay.

1) The fate system does not automatically imply every battle will be a zombie or mass attack clusterbomb. Also, you're kidding yourself if you think most XI HNMs required much strategy- In most cases, there was just one strategy, and generally only one moment (low HP) that required any change in tactics.

I fail to see what's fun or challenging about standing at a pop spot for several hours then having a low-ping contest with dozens of other people to see who can press provoke first.

Then give me an option.. something where every time you fight a monster it feels amazing and the drop you get feels great, and if you say 30 mins to an hour respawn on any monster that drops epic gear you sir have lost your speaking privileges.

And name one HNM that didn't require tatics from FFXI. Obviously you got used to them over time and it became second nature and easy but you couldn't just destroy it and send bodies at any of them. Please name one.

[Kryptic]

I understand what you're trying to say, but why can't we get that "ooh, shiny!" through fun and well-thought-out content instead of spending hours standing around waiting for something to pop and roll a random number to see who gets the 1% chance at an item drop in the ensuing provoke/dia/claim cluster#&$%? You don't need any of that crap to have fun exciting, really hard battles that have a small chance to give you a rare drop and subsequent "best feeling in the world". world bosses don't have to use obnoxious spawn mechanics to achieve the things that you yourself desire. It can be made a less stressful experience for *everyone* while still giving the "ooh, shiny!" effect.

Most people were lucky to get 1 try at that great piece of equipment, what with all the botting and cheating FFXI had at "traditional" HNMs. They can come up with a better content design such that everyone has a fair shot (by fair I mean equal, not fair as in "fair drop rate"), rather than the content being designed such that the number of people that have the rare item is determined by the difficulty, not the number of people with the patience to sit through boring hours of non-gameplay.

1) The fate system does not automatically imply every battle will be a zombie or mass attack clusterbomb. Also, you're kidding yourself if you think most XI HNMs required much strategy- In most cases, there was just one strategy, and generally only one moment (low HP) that required any change in tactics.

I fail to see what's fun or challenging about standing at a pop spot for several hours then having a low-ping contest with dozens of other people to see who can press provoke first.

And every single person brings up botting or cheating I don't understand, the server I was on had one linkshell who spent a fortune on a bot that literally did them nothing and we still out claimed them. If you get good at the timing and knowing which skills have the last cast time and whatever else you have the same amount of % to claim any monster. Stop bowing down to people who try to cheat and shove it in their face and laugh at them.

[Andrien]

Easy Mode = Standing around camping, and waiting for a pop window. It doesn't matter how many people participate, it rewards only a few that claims it fast enough.

Well Thought Out Content = Takes effort to complete, and a better sense of accomplishment for anyone that participates.


You pick.

[Stephen]

Oh, I got your point and agrees with that effort = reward.

In borrowing your quote, I was just trying to remind people that up to this point, effort doesn't equate to the hours you put in. So that in itself is a major issue SE needs to address, and they will.

But one major disagreement within the past few pages is that some considers camping = effort, while others considers pre-conditions to induce a force-pop = effort.

I do not believe those that are against the pop-window method are against putting in the effort. It just seems we have different meanings for "effort" in the discussion. To me, pop-window is just waiting around and is effortless, as I do not have to do anything, other then be there when the time is up.

jc

Some very good points here, some would see camping an NM as 'effort' too though, you have to be patient and find things to keep you occupied i.e crafting/gathering. If the pop window is one of the larger ones then some coordination with your party to rotate camp also helps....

I understand what you mean - that some people don't have the time to camp or just see it as a boring waste of time.
I say that there should be some campable NMs and some instanced - if people don't want to camp the NMs then they don't have to.

I personally will enjoy both types of content and make the time/put in the effort to do so.

[Alhanelem]

Then give me an option.. something where every time you fight a monster it feels amazing and the drop you get feels great, and if you say 30 mins to an hour respawn on any monster that drops epic gear you sir have lost your speaking privileges.

I don't see how the amount of time a monster takes to spawn or the amount of that time that you actually end up waiting for it is relevant. good drops should be rewarded more for challenge than for the amount of time you spend twiddling your thumbs. I don't see why sitting around camping waiting for an NM to pop makes you more deserving of a reward than if you just have a challenging fight with low drop rates. I've never minded once a day spawns, but I do mind the 3 hours of 30 minute spawn windows.

Specifically at the first part of your sentence, it's really not possible to make it where every time you fight a monster it feels amazing. It always feels better the first time- but it sure doesn't feel better when the fight is easy and the only hard part was beating 100 other people to pressing the claim button. XIV 1.0 had its share of rare drops that not everybody had. Did they need 3-7 day spawns with 30 minute windows throughout? No, they didn't. You can't tell me you didn't get this kind of charge out of getting a piece of darklight. If you do, you're being hypocritical, because those weren't common items.

I say that there should be some campable NMs and some instanced - if people don't want to camp the NMs then they don't have to.

That's fine to me as long as the rewards are equivalent in quality (obv. there would be limits on how often you could challenge the instance or have a lower drop rate if you could challenge it more often). If some people want to sit around waiting for something to pop, that's their perogative, but I don't feel that being idle for a few hours entitles someone to a bigger reward.

Just because we don't find camping very fun doesn't mean we're not hardcore players- I'm very much a hardcore player- but I prefer to spend my time in the game immersed in the content as much as possible. I want reward consummate with risk not wait time.

[Shougun]

OK so, FFXII in mind - you get those monster kill requests from the board.

Now, HNM idea.


Force popped: do certain actions / get certain items - pop monster, or pop a zone that has the monsters in it


Window popped: HNM will appear on boards all over the world, when a party enters the zone they will be given the choice to start a hunt - if they accept they will not see anyone else in a hunt for the same creature. The hunted creature will only aggro their party. Once you kill the monster he is dead till he respawns - his window is decided by the first kill on him. If SE wants to be nice they can leave a time of death in the beastiary or some menu of the hunt board.


After the first kill he has half his window time to despawn from all hunt boards. So a ~48 hour monster pops, a group kills him, ~24 hours from now all hunting boards will stop letting others hunt him, ~48 hours later he will pop again.

Perhaps if you havent gotten the flier from the HNM board that a moogle may pop up and inform you of a dangerous monster nearby and your party can volunteer to join the hunt that way. PS I want a personal moogle so this makes more sense in my head.. :P (moogle popping up to talk to you)


Window popped monsters would be special because you wouldnt and couldnt grind them - but in theory everyone should get a chance as its not about who can claim faster.