Highly Notorious Monsters

[Jeronlmo]

There's a difference between really hard and designed-to-be-impossible. That being said, today AV and PW are tough but not impossible HNMs. Neither of them has a pop timer or spawn windows. They only appear after beating a long chain of other NMs- in this case, the encounter is made rare without relying on timers- it takes a certain amount of time to beat all the stuff that lets you fight the HNM.

Content like VNMs and Zeni NMs were based on this premise- the hardest mob can only be fought once every so often because you have to fight other stuff to get to it. This is the best way to make an encounter rare- by tying it to other content that must be cleared first.

"Today" nobody cares about how easy AV/PW is, just like getting a relic, if you really tried you can get a new relic or 2 every month, FF11 is currently a joke/casual pit full of people who think they are good after SE made peoples characters god-like compared to the mobs they fight.

Me, and several others in fact have said we agree sky/sea and I guess even ZNM/VNM's did something right, but guess what? FF11 had all of them as an option with HNM's, not just what you like, hell, I remember people trying to explain this to you before the servers went down and you just cannot seem to understand that I/we do not care if you liked... lets say pvp, I do not personally enjoy pvp, do you see me starting a thread saying PvP should not be in the game?

[Exn]

Then you can agree that time window is not required in ARR, therefore to bring it back will only reintroduce old issues that SE has been trying to solve in FF11, and not eliminate them as they can do in ARR.

Well no, I can't agree with that, fully. Just because you had an issue with that system, doesn't make it an 'issue' for everyone else that needs to be solved. I for one, enjoyed that system because of how it was designed, as did others. I throughly enjoyed camping HNM, and running limit/skillup pts inbetween windows, because it was like killing two birds with one stone. I rarely would skillup outside of while I was camping (I dunno, just got bored quickly whiffn my way to skillcap solo, because part of the idea during skillup pt is VERY slow kills and alot of misses/resists..) so if it wasn't for that system, theres alot I may have never accomplished.

I also LOVE idling in games at times while taking care of housework, etc. I actually hate the housework... but I'm the only one in the house who is ever going to do it (my roomate = complete slob), so having the game on, chattin with friends, and every 30m or so gettin a short break from the chores almost worked as motivation for me. This is the same reason why I was so for the specatator mode option (I dunno if you saw that thread). I was hoping to use spectator mode for dungeons or whatever while I take care of other chores around the house, I still get to see some action. Much like other people might watch TV while doing housework.

You may be partially right, and this type of content may not be required for a successful ARR. But, as I have suggested it, including it doesn't hurt anyone who's not interested in that type of content (ex: same rewards offered in other instanced content). And excluding it may turn away a population of gamers (however large or small..) that ARR may end up needing to last as a successful MMO. So, I dunno, better safe than sorry?

[Jeronlmo]

Yes, actually they should be up near 100% of the time- because they're hard to beat. I want deadly monsters that are almost sure to rape my face- not easy monsters that I have to camp all day to crush under my foot. I don't mind if the mob only pops say once or twice a day. I only mind that even if you know when it's "ready" to pop, you still have to devote up to 3or more hours of your game time to doing nothing before getting to fight. Playing the game = fun. Not playing the game = not fun.

You're just taking what I said and twisting it to absurdity, and not coming up with a compelling argument as to why 30 minute spawn windows make HNMs better. HNMs are fun in spite of the waiting, not because of it.

You honestly complaining about people not comming up with a compelling argument to a post a page back that youve edited atleast 3 times that ive seen, your post started as the first sentence.

The idea of windows adds randomness to it for the next day spawn, 30min-3hrs later meaning you cannot just never camp and NM and automatically know the ToD (theres also keeping HNM's in a certain time zone issue), you could have also just gone to Einherjar. Secret - it lasted 30min's

World spawn bosses (what people here call HNMs) are fine. hours of 30 minute spawn windows are not. Have the HNM, ditch the spawn windows, and just have it pop randomly over time or at set intervals. That immediately solves my main grievance. pop windows are just completely unnecessary. If you know a ToD, you should just go there when the time comes, have it pop, either claim it or don't, and get your reward or don't. There's no good reason to potentially make people wait 1-3 more hours on top of that.

Oh your sneaky, just start new post or atleast edit when your post are still new.

Considering you sound like you have virtually no play time, if there are no windows, you will never have a ToD, people will only be in the area for the exact time it takes to kill any given HNM, windows are literally the only way the majority found the ToD's in FF11 once they were lost. If I remember correctly if you had a decent party setup is 5-6 people even Nidhogg only took 10min ish, so you would have 10min's every day to happen to be there, which would prob actually mean your going to have to stand there the entire day waiting for others to show up and hope you werent afk, a bathroom break and you could miss the kill.

Edit: Removed double posted text

[Phe]

on which page was the explanation of how botting for claims can be excluded?
i missed it.

edit: nvm i found it.
probably it can only be solved with a random factor.

but how goes a random factor for claiming go together with the competition idea?

i mean its easy mathematics: when 5 LSs are camping a HNM, chances are 80% that you camp for nothing.

[Blackpearlguy]

on which page was the explanation of how botting for claims can be excluded?
i missed it.

edit: nvm i found it.
probably it can only be solved with a random factor.

but how goes a random factor for claiming go together with the competition idea?

I think people were looking at spawns like DI/SW where it was more of a hunt than a pop and claim.

[Jeronlmo]

on which page was the explanation of how botting for claims can be excluded?
i missed it.

edit: nvm i found it.
probably it can only be solved with a random factor.

but how goes a random factor for claiming go together with the competition idea?

i mean its easy mathematics: when 5 LSs are camping a HNM, chances are 80% that you camp for nothing.

honestly the easiest way to combat botting in an HNM situation is to make the mob have mechanics like that of Dark Ixion or Sandworm in FFXI. They had random(well kinda random) spawn conditons where they even changed actual zones every spawn. Yes bots still worked with those but if you didnt have a competent LS you still were not going to claim it. I would say build on those mechanics making them more random as in no patterns at all or at least enough patterns that it wont repeat for at least a week.

For people who did not play XI i will summarize how Sandworm and DI generally worked:

Sandworm: Could spawn in iirc 9 different zones with about 2-3 different areas in each zone. The zone of spawn was usually to large for one person to be able to stand still and notice the spawn so you had to run around searching. It also had no window intervals like that of Fafnir/Behe.. meaning it could spawn at anytime of the random spawn period which was 20-24 hours.

Dark Ixion: pretty much works the same except if there was a campaign (major NPC battle event; kinda like behest) it would run out of the zone and into another zone where no battle is taking place. Yo also needed a special throwing item to even claim it. Once claimed it pretty much killed anyone solo unless you were extremely skilled and geared.. honestly there was no one who could claim it and hold it for more then about 15-30s other then the best geared Paladins.

I think the way those mobs work are the best way to implement HNMs into FFXIV with more tweaking and building on the mechanics to fit the game and make it more fair.

The simple fact is that no matter what a developer does there will always be a bot. and i think people blame the devs way to much thinking they are not doing their job when its not the case. If a game uses a mouse and keyboard AT ALL to input commands there will be a bot always. no if ands or buts because a bot simply presses keys for u. So instead of saying no to HNM's period because of bot wars just use mechanics that aren't able to be predicted.

Also if the FFXI HNM ways dont fit the playerbase make it something like this :

-Said HNM has a domain where he rules
-The domain is NOT instanced but rather have it where u need special qualifications to enter you group whether it be quest or farming tokens ( like headresses for Garuda in 1.0)
- The domain is a VERY hard place to navigate and get through meaning mobs are hard.. mini bosses are present before you get to the main boss.
-The Main HNM boss can move to anywhere in its domain.. its kinda dumb to call something Behemoths dominion and he only pops in the same spot every time not much of a dominion.
-The HNM has a random respawn timer or lottery spawn like the mechanics of FFXI. Make the Respawn timer like 6 hours with a lottery spawn from killing the mini bosses and it can take up to 12 hours to spawn starting at 6 hours. Can adjust these numbers to 2-4 3-6 or whatever to fit the player base.
- The most important thing is to make this content difficult as to not make it outdated because of ease of access to the gear. Make it take at least 1-2 hours to even reach the HNM with a full alliance of people. (See. Dynamis Lord or Kirin from FFXI)

and thats my wall of text for HNMs

Beyond popular belief, botters did not like botting, HNM ls's in 11 did it because someone else did, if 1 person does it, the rest follow or die. Sandworm/DI were near perfect for getting rid of the botting for HNM's, the only flaw was the fact that in FF11 mobs had "death spots" which was basically their dead body, which you might think it disappears because it no longer shows on your screen but the ID for the dead body stayed behind until the HNM respawned which was the trigger for knowing it respawned.

So even though botting still existed on sandworm/DI, is was very far from effective, with how respawns worked on those 2 mobs aslong as you knew TOD and you were searching for it, you had equal chances at getting it, you could know it spawned but not where.

I really have no idea of the purpose of there being death spots (which is what bots detected), but if they could simply remove them, I would see no way for them to even be used.

Edit: I think the actual term we should be using is "Packet Bots", which is what HNM LS's used, which can be delt with fairly easily, they simply sniffed packets. Normal bots on the other hand is not generally what was used in HNM's, normal bots just control keyboard strokes which no game can do anything about sadly, theres really no way for them to tell if you or a program is hitting a key which is what RMT/crafters use.

[Enma]

Hmm, I really can't understand why so many people is scared by repop time. Do you fear to really be forced to wait doing nothing?! It is not necessary the case.

I don't mean the waiting time makes a fight difficult, but it afflicts how much practice you can do over that, and how epic would be your victory. Spamming an HNM with 5 minutes repop means that, even if you don't have fingers to play, at the end you will win it.
If you can combat against it just once a day (If you pull it), it means you can't and you don't want commit any errors, because you are fighting a RARE mob.

My opinion is that there are two different concept behing HNMs through the people:

1. EX Final Fantasy XI players: Long Repop Time
2. New Final Fantasy XIV players: Epic Fights

These two points of view don't exclude each other and can cohabit too. We can call High Notorious Monsters the FFXI school of thought, and F.A.T.E. the new one.

Even if it appears F.A.T.E. could be not so much hardcore, it's a perfect system to improve which can get big attention by players. In A Realm Reborn both systems could be improved, but the secret is not to make one more worthwhile than the other.

[Eekiki]

Alhanelem is kicking everyone's ass in this thread.

Just sayin'.

[Blackpearlguy]

My opinion is that there are two different concept behing HNMs through the people:

1. EX Final Fantasy XI players: Long Repop Time
2. New Final Fantasy XIV players: Epic Fights

These two points of view don't exclude each other and can cohabit too. We can call High Notorious Monsters the FFXI school of thought, and F.A.T.E. the new one.

Even if it appears F.A.T.E. could be not so much hardcore, it's a perfect system to improve which can get big attention by players. In A Realm Reborn both systems could be improved, but the secret is not to make one more worthwhile than the other.

Definitely two different user groups I won't dispute that, but that's why it makes sense to cater to both. If you check GW2 the whole FATE system is an epic fail. FATE will be the introduction, instances will probably be the main course. With that being said FFXI had 500k subs at peak, a lot of which could be attracted back by features like the re-implementation of HNM. If you can't tell that by the 100 plus pages on this forum then you're blind.

[Eekiki]

Definitely two different user groups I won't dispute that, but that's why it makes sense to cater to both. If you check GW2 the whole FATE system is an epic fail. FATE will be the introduction, instances will probably be the main course. With that being said FFXI had 500k subs at peak, a lot of which could be attracted back by features like the re-implementation of HNM. If you can't tell that by the 100 plus pages on this forum then you're blind.

I count 26 pages in this thread, many of them refuting this claim.

In point of fact, the main force that sent many of those 500k subscribers away after FFXI's peak was World of Warcraft, a game that catered much more highly to the casual player, and a game that has yet to be bested in terms of financial success or player population ever since it knocked FFXI out of the #1 spot.

I can even remember hearing the stories as people left. "It's so much better than FFXI. I can log in for only a couple hours a day and actually make progress!" "Soo much nicer not having to sit around camping NMs for hours in order to get drops."

I could go on, but you get the gist.

And I hope you can see how your two schools of thought can't co-exist in the same game, because of two reasons.

1. If the gear you get from your "HNMs" is equal to gear you get from instanced raids, triggered pop NMs, or boss fights. NO ONE is going to bother sitting on their asses for hours doing nothing waiting for an HNM to pop. It isn't fun. It isn't. Stop pretending it is. Shut up.

2. If the long-lottery-repop HNM gear is superior to all others, then that's all anyone will care about endgame, so no one will bother with instanced raids, boss fights, triggered pops, PvP, or anything else. You're tossing dozens of potential forms of content in the garbage for one that's not fun in any way.