Highly Notorious Monsters

[EinSoFZ]

excuse me Sir, but i lol'd hard.

say no to claim wars and say no to camping for hours.

I know it sounds ridiculous to some and despite the amounts of bullshit it often entails it's not something I'd want to see entirely eliminated.

Seeing Fafnir or other such things was just fun even if your group didn't claim. As a community I think it brings us closer to each other which isn't a bad thing. If it's not something you're doing all day every day, it's a fun experience. It's an option of how to play the game. Saying no to it is just asking them to make the game less varied really. I wouldn't want to see 3-4 hour windows again, but an unpredictable pop time should be an element.

[Radacci]

I guess you misunderstood. This has nothing to do with ego, just the challenge and experience . I enjoying challenging content, and get bored with rather quickly the more button mashing and mindless content, as I believe you and most other ppl would too. Claimable HNM could require more skill for many reasons all centered around the fact that it's a more controlled environment. The fight itself (no help from onlookers) is limited to X number of players for X amount of time. Unclaimable mob could also be scaled up to accommodate for the many variables will change the experience of the encounter, as I also suggested earlier, but it's always going to be difficult to incorporate strategy when there's little or no control of the ppl in the encounter. Also if/when the zone is dead how do you keep the content balanced? If It's been scaled up to make it challenging for let's say 75 ppl, it wouldn't even be doable for a group of 3-6.

I still believe all types of HNM content can, and should, be included in ARR.

you mean that claimed mobs means no one else can attack it?
I'm pretty sure they could make boss spawn mob; when it does, boss is invincible. and different adds are immune to different damage types. So different classes need to do different things. etc. you can create many tactical situations even in FATEs.
Well if the zone is dead, then it doesnt matter much anyways. If it happens, they might simply move the boss somewhere else, or nerf it.

[Phe]

I know it sounds ridiculous to some and despite the amounts of bullshit it often entails it's not something I'd want to see entirely eliminated.

Seeing Fafnir or other such things was just fun even if your group didn't claim. As a community I think it brings us closer to each other which isn't a bad thing. If it's not something you're doing all day every day, it's a fun experience. It's an option of how to play the game. Saying no to it is just asking them to make the game less varied really. I wouldn't want to see 3-4 hour windows again, but an unpredictable pop time should be an element.

i did fafnir too and i hated it.
was just doin it for some DKP.
it was basically doing RL stuff for 25 mins,
coming back to the PC,
buffing and waiting 5 mins for the time window,
and going afk again.
repeated until it actually pops what could be 3 hours.
i mean wtf?

seriously.
please let me point out one thing to you all.

EVERY HOUR THAT YOU SIT IN FRONT OF YOUR PC...
STARING ON THE SCREEN DOING NOTHING BUT WAITING...
IS ONE HOUR THAT YOU STEAL YOURSELF FROM YOUR LIFETIME...
AND YOU WON'T GET IT BACK. EVER.

think about it.
that's all.

[Exn]

yes i agree, i was just being sarcastic i wanted to point out that his argument that HNMs etc should be exclusive or something is silly. and his idea of *other people interfering* is selfish. and MMO is about community etc

Actually, I already addressed that myself..

The window system 1st) staggered the pops so it wouldn't pop at the same time everyday (eliminating anyone who was unavailable at let's say 'noon' every single day..) 2) increased the suspense and community by adding some randomness to when exactly it was going to pop (obviously one one possible pop window takes that all away.. Ppl would just show up a minute before the pop, not claim, and roll out, event over.. I met over half my friends list on various campings of NM and HNM) 3) allowed and encouraged pug and ls pt activities in between the windows (for the ppl who understood SE obviously didn't want you twiddling your thumbs or staring at a screen with no action for hrs..which changed with dark ixion/sw, though they had a much shorter open window).

So no.. I'm not being selfish.. Selfish would be asking SE to exclude a system that you don't even understand..

[Exn]

i did fafnir too and i hated it.
was just doin it for some DKP.
it was basically doing RL stuff for 25 mins,
coming back to the PC,
buffing and waiting 5 mins for the time window,
and going afk again.
repeated until it actually pops what could be 3 hours.
i mean wtf?

Hmm really? I seem to recall manaburn limit pts with my LS in between Cerbs windows.. And doing Limit pts and FoV in between Ada's... And catching/killing Rapido while waiting on KV's weather... And farming bugs for gil and running ppl up the mountain in the Chasm in between Tia's (one hour windows btw...)... And tons of skill up pts in the Tree for Faf/Nidd between windows (only need a few ppl to hold...).. AND I COULD KEEP GOING... That's not even including all the real life things you could be doing in between windows (as I already said cooking dinner, washing clothes, TV!). It's your own fault you sat there twiddling your thumbs..

Think about it.
That's all.

[EinSoFZ]

please let me point out one thing to you all.

EVERY HOUR THAT YOU SIT IN FRONT OF YOUR PC...
STARING ON THE SCREEN DOING NOTHING BUT WAITING...
IS ONE HOUR THAT YOU STEEL YOURSELF FROM YOUR LIFETIME...
AND YOU WON'T GET IT BACK. EVER.

think about it.
that's all.

Haha that's a bad thing to say though. Some people do nothing but watch TV all day - not because it's particularly entertaining but because they have nothing else they want to do. In MMOs no one can force you to show up to camp, so you likely have some incentive for going there. If you make that choice for yourself, then it can't really be wasting your life.

Some people would say playing any video game is taking time away from your life and that you should be doing something more reasonable with your time. I'd still camp stuff knowing fully well it's going to be a long wait, I may not even see it or that my team won't be the ones killing it. What I probably wouldn't do is join a LS where that's literally all we do and there this strict system of attendance with points. Not fun when there's that much pressure.

[Alhanelem]

We've already dispelled the myth you keeping creating that you had to sit, stare, and wait between pop windows. As many times as you keep trying to use that excuse, it's a completely baseless arguement and only shows your obvious 'player error'. Just because you can't accept it, that will never change the facts. You wasted your own time, doing something you didn't even enjoy, the wrong way.. Period.

1) replacing quote with 'stuff' tells me you didn't really read it.
2) what you have aren't facts.

Think about it.
That's all.

I have thought about it- The only reason those people were doing those things is because they happened to be there. Would that LS have done those things anyway if they weren't driven there by an HNM? No, they wouldn't have. These were just extra things for the sole purpose of time filler. Now, if you want to propose that HNMs be located in interesting places where there is stuff that you could do while you're waiting, I wouldn't argue with that- but it still wouldn't be as good as not having to wait in the first place.

*one* HNM camp had a FoV tome at it. *one* other has worthwhile monsters to kill in the area to pass the time. Most of the other HNM are in remote locations and don't offer much to do in the vicinity. Also, FoV is a recent edition, and back when there was actually competition for HNMs, they didn't exist in the first place. So no, it's not my player error and it's not a fact.

You DID TOO have to sit and wait between pop windows. there was not much else to do except do something not FFXI. It is a poorly designed system. Let me ask you: Why do you LOVE pop windows so much? Why do you think this is so superior to the mob just... popping? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It is just wasting time without any benefits. Even if there was just one missable window and you had to wait 3 hours for the sure pop it wouldn't be as bad. Having to check every 30 minutes just reduces your ability to make any better use of the time.

You DO NOT need pop windows to have HNMs.

You DO NOT need to have easy mobs with long pop times to have HNMs.

You DO NOT need to have latency contests with everyone in the zone to have HNMs.

You DO NOT need to have any of these things to make the gear rare.

An HNM isn't defined by how long you have to wait for it to pop. It's defined by the monster's caliber, or at least it should be. They aren't "notorious" if they're easy to kill.

CHALLENGING FIGHTS.
GREAT BEASTS.
AMAZING GEAR.

(OK, the first one was "roaming dragons" but really, does anyone NOT want a challenging fight?)
Weren't these the premises of the original post? I don't see "2-5 day pop times" or "several hours of 30 minute spawn windows" in there anywhere.

The impression I get is the hardest of the hardcore simply want to have stuff that's exclusive to them on the sole basis that nobody else wants to put up with the bullcrap mechanics. Wouldn't it be a lot coolr and a lot bigger of an achievement if you could say you had amazing gear no one else had because you can beat it and they can't, rather than because simply no one else had the patience to sit through hours of doing nothing?

Claimable HNM in XI was never 'button-mash' as you tried to claim

No, but it was never as hard as you're implying, either. Only a couple of the mobs we called HNMs at 75 were truly a challenge. the 3 kings were never hard, most wipes were a result of either outside interference or people just not following directions.

HNM, as in a monster that's highly notorious for a reason, is a good thing in concept. Lets put that good thing in the game without bogging it down with silly mechanics that would only exist to hassle the average player to the point of saying 'i'm not going to bother." It is just a handful of super-hardcores (yes, meaning more than just being hardcore) pushing for the "old-school" system, because they're the only ones willing to put up with it therefore they'll have less competition. These players are just afraid of more people showing up to camp if it isn't as boring as hell to camp them.

To me the definition of "notorious is" "hard enough that you lose more often than not and the beast is usually up as a result" - in other words, the kind of monster that terorrizes people and you only dare fight it if you have the skillz and gear that's up to the challenge.

[Exn]

1) replacing quote with 'stuff' tells me you didn't really read it.

You DID TOO have to sit and wait between pop windows. there was not much else to do except do something not FFXI. It is a poorly designed system. Let me ask you: Why do you LOVE pop windows so much? Why do you think this is so superior to the mob just... popping? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It is just wasting time without any benefits.

Quoting 'Stuff' simply implies I'm replying directly to you.. No need to always clutter up a post with a lot of other ppls 'stuff', when they should know what they said..

Those questions you just asked, however, do show you haven't really read anything I've said.. As I just answered BOTH of them in just the past few posts..

[Blackpearlguy]

you mean that claimed mobs means no one else can attack it?
I'm pretty sure they could make boss spawn mob; when it does, boss is invincible. and different adds are immune to different damage types. So different classes need to do different things. etc. you can create many tactical situations even in FATEs.
Well if the zone is dead, then it doesnt matter much anyways. If it happens, they might simply move the boss somewhere else, or nerf it.

I think what i've been trying to get at is when ToAU (FFXI expansion pack) came out and the whole server was trying to figure out just how to kill Hydra, some group fought it for like 11 hours straight. First we tried just attack it, which didn't work. Then we figured out we had to cut off each head one at a time, this required players to do a host of different things from skillchaining, to magic burst coordination, to proper player placement on the battle field. I just can't see a bunch of random players in FATE coordinating together to defeat an enemy in this manner, but who knows maybe? To finalize the FATE topic Yoshi also stated it will be used for exp and average items only

For me HNM will be about the journey. Why they were so enjoyable in XI was due to scrambling around from camp to camp, having to compete against others for an H/NM claim, claiming the mob and having the added pressure of 3 other groups hoping to see you fail. If that doesn't happen it won't be terrible. However I do hope the battle coordination mirrors FFXI, even the simple idea of a skillchain became hectic in those intense battles.

As for windows we have a ton of people who want them back, and a ton of others who think they're irrelevant time wasters. Please SE, give us both!

[Radacci]

Sorry, but claiming, and excluding everyone else, seems excessively retarded
I was assuming that claiming a mob simply meant you're the one who got the loot when boss dies. That's why i was wondering what the difference between Fate and HNM would be, since there'd be lots of people there either way.
Claiming is just elitist BS, that divides the community. Why should you *stand in line* hoping for other ppl to fail, so you can hope to grab the price?
Just make it instanced, FATE, or dont add it at all -.-
Instanced ruins the point of a community.
Claims divide the community.
So i vote for FATE.
I still don't see how FATE would exclude any *skill* either. Crappy players just gonna die like at Atomos, and you're left with people who can listen, and coordinate anyways.