Highly Notorious Monsters

[Radacci]

Spoken like someone who's never experienced a similar system ( see RIFT, GW2,etc.). Non-claimable 'HNM' has always been a spamfest of just throwing bodies at it until it dies. Sure you could try to grab a small group of friends to try to strategically make it a challenge, but what's the point when you've already 'beat' the 'HNM' ten times last week with the rest of the server who was online at the time.. And nothing is stopping other players from showing up and ruining your attempt at executing it in your fashion.

Claimable HNM in XI was never 'button-mash' as you tried to claim (well maybe after level cap was maxed at 99 and you went back to faceroll old content...like your DI vid - even tho he was always easy to kite, harder to kill). Clearly you never attempted it per Abyssea ( or at all.). I'm not arguing that HNM were very hard either (even though you wouldn't b able to tell that by watching some LS wipe) but compared to non-claimable hop-in hop-out style 'HNM' its a complete joke. They don't even compare as a matter of fact. And yes, some HNM did require you to have a lot of ppl to kill it.. Again I guess your not speaking from experience, not just claimable HNM can require a lot of ppl, but dungeons/raids too very easily, mmos have been using dps checks as an aspect of the encounter for years.

I have never played XI no.
So enlighten me how claimable bosses are harder, and need more skill?
to quote you "And nothing is stopping other players from showing up and ruining your attempt at executing it in your fashion" so it's just a matter of your ego wanting to be 1 of few to kill it? which brings me back to my point, why even have it as open world content at all? lets just make it instanced, so god forbid, you're not forced to endure the community interfering with your business....in an MMO...

[EinSoFZ]

I have never played XI no.
So enlighten me how claimable bosses are harder, and need more skill?
to quote you "And nothing is stopping other players from showing up and ruining your attempt at executing it in your fashion" so it's just a matter of your ego wanting to be 1 of few to kill it? which brings me back to my point, why even have it as open world content at all? lets just make it instanced, so god forbid, you're not forced to endure the community interfering with your business....in an MMO...

I've mostly been reading the thread, but when you said this I got an idea of why making everything instanced or poppable is actually bad. As a community it is often things like HNM camping or similar such things which bring us together and make for an active and varied game. To say, we're all players in the same game so to some degree what someone else is doing is your business. The items other people get end up being the ones you buy; this is direct result of whatever activity they chose to do and if they were to stop doing it, it'd be more obvious that one person's business affects that of another.

A major point of an MMO is community. Instanced material requiring only a single party of people you may know is fine, but it's important that there are things that also bring player's together in a way that is open and less confined in space/time. Sometimes it's fun to wait, anticipate and finally get the kill or see it.

[Phe]

Sometimes it's fun to wait

excuse me Sir, but i lol'd hard.

say no to claim wars and say no to camping for hours.

[EinSoFZ]

excuse me Sir, but i lol'd hard.

say no to claim wars and say no to camping for hours.

I know it sounds ridiculous to some and despite the amounts of bullshit it often entails it's not something I'd want to see entirely eliminated.

Seeing Fafnir or other such things was just fun even if your group didn't claim. As a community I think it brings us closer to each other which isn't a bad thing. If it's not something you're doing all day every day, it's a fun experience. It's an option of how to play the game. Saying no to it is just asking them to make the game less varied really. I wouldn't want to see 3-4 hour windows again, but an unpredictable pop time should be an element.

[Phe]

I know it sounds ridiculous to some and despite the amounts of bullshit it often entails it's not something I'd want to see entirely eliminated.

Seeing Fafnir or other such things was just fun even if your group didn't claim. As a community I think it brings us closer to each other which isn't a bad thing. If it's not something you're doing all day every day, it's a fun experience. It's an option of how to play the game. Saying no to it is just asking them to make the game less varied really. I wouldn't want to see 3-4 hour windows again, but an unpredictable pop time should be an element.

i did fafnir too and i hated it.
was just doin it for some DKP.
it was basically doing RL stuff for 25 mins,
coming back to the PC,
buffing and waiting 5 mins for the time window,
and going afk again.
repeated until it actually pops what could be 3 hours.
i mean wtf?

seriously.
please let me point out one thing to you all.

EVERY HOUR THAT YOU SIT IN FRONT OF YOUR PC...
STARING ON THE SCREEN DOING NOTHING BUT WAITING...
IS ONE HOUR THAT YOU STEAL YOURSELF FROM YOUR LIFETIME...
AND YOU WON'T GET IT BACK. EVER.

think about it.
that's all.

[Exn]

i did fafnir too and i hated it.
was just doin it for some DKP.
it was basically doing RL stuff for 25 mins,
coming back to the PC,
buffing and waiting 5 mins for the time window,
and going afk again.
repeated until it actually pops what could be 3 hours.
i mean wtf?

Hmm really? I seem to recall manaburn limit pts with my LS in between Cerbs windows.. And doing Limit pts and FoV in between Ada's... And catching/killing Rapido while waiting on KV's weather... And farming bugs for gil and running ppl up the mountain in the Chasm in between Tia's (one hour windows btw...)... And tons of skill up pts in the Tree for Faf/Nidd between windows (only need a few ppl to hold...).. AND I COULD KEEP GOING... That's not even including all the real life things you could be doing in between windows (as I already said cooking dinner, washing clothes, TV!). It's your own fault you sat there twiddling your thumbs..

Think about it.
That's all.

[EinSoFZ]

please let me point out one thing to you all.

EVERY HOUR THAT YOU SIT IN FRONT OF YOUR PC...
STARING ON THE SCREEN DOING NOTHING BUT WAITING...
IS ONE HOUR THAT YOU STEEL YOURSELF FROM YOUR LIFETIME...
AND YOU WON'T GET IT BACK. EVER.

think about it.
that's all.

Haha that's a bad thing to say though. Some people do nothing but watch TV all day - not because it's particularly entertaining but because they have nothing else they want to do. In MMOs no one can force you to show up to camp, so you likely have some incentive for going there. If you make that choice for yourself, then it can't really be wasting your life.

Some people would say playing any video game is taking time away from your life and that you should be doing something more reasonable with your time. I'd still camp stuff knowing fully well it's going to be a long wait, I may not even see it or that my team won't be the ones killing it. What I probably wouldn't do is join a LS where that's literally all we do and there this strict system of attendance with points. Not fun when there's that much pressure.

[Radacci]

I've mostly been reading the thread, but when you said this I got an idea of why making everything instanced or poppable is actually bad. As a community it is often things like HNM camping or similar such things which bring us together and make for an active and varied game. To say, we're all players in the same game so to some degree what someone else is doing is your business. The items other people get end up being the ones you buy; this is direct result of whatever activity they chose to do and if they were to stop doing it, it'd be more obvious that one person's business affects that of another.

A major point of an MMO is community. Instanced material requiring only a single party of people you may know is fine, but it's important that there are things that also bring player's together in a way that is open and less confined in space/time. Sometimes it's fun to wait, anticipate and finally get the kill or see it.

yes i agree, i was just being sarcastic i wanted to point out that his argument that HNMs etc should be exclusive or something is silly. and his idea of *other people interfering* is selfish. and MMO is about community etc, and there's none of that if you wanna get some item, and summon HNM somewhere away from others, to do it your way. or maximizing you chance at claiming.
But i do understand that FATEs can be a bit crappy in the sense that people just come together when the FATE start, then everyone just leave, as it was with Atomos; except most people new exactly when it spawned, and quite predictably where. It didn't really create any big window to open up any conversations. Then when it's over you just loot, and port somewhere else.
But i believe they will make something good. They havn't really messed up anything yet that i know about.

[Exn]

yes i agree, i was just being sarcastic i wanted to point out that his argument that HNMs etc should be exclusive or something is silly. and his idea of *other people interfering* is selfish. and MMO is about community etc

Actually, I already addressed that myself..

The window system 1st) staggered the pops so it wouldn't pop at the same time everyday (eliminating anyone who was unavailable at let's say 'noon' every single day..) 2) increased the suspense and community by adding some randomness to when exactly it was going to pop (obviously one one possible pop window takes that all away.. Ppl would just show up a minute before the pop, not claim, and roll out, event over.. I met over half my friends list on various campings of NM and HNM) 3) allowed and encouraged pug and ls pt activities in between the windows (for the ppl who understood SE obviously didn't want you twiddling your thumbs or staring at a screen with no action for hrs..which changed with dark ixion/sw, though they had a much shorter open window).

So no.. I'm not being selfish.. Selfish would be asking SE to exclude a system that you don't even understand..

[Exn]

I have never played XI no.
So enlighten me how claimable bosses are harder, and need more skill?
to quote you "And nothing is stopping other players from showing up and ruining your attempt at executing it in your fashion" so it's just a matter of your ego wanting to be 1 of few to kill it? which brings me back to my point, why even have it as open world content at all? lets just make it instanced, so god forbid, you're not forced to endure the community interfering with your business....in an MMO...

I guess you misunderstood. This has nothing to do with ego, just the challenge and experience . I enjoying challenging content, and get bored with rather quickly the more button mashing and mindless content, as I believe you and most other ppl would too. Claimable HNM could require more skill for many reasons all centered around the fact that it's a more controlled environment. The fight itself (no help from onlookers) is limited to X number of players for X amount of time. Unclaimable mob could also be scaled up to accommodate for the many variables will change the experience of the encounter, as I also suggested earlier, but it's always going to be difficult to incorporate strategy when there's little or no control of the ppl in the encounter. Also if/when the zone is dead how do you keep the content balanced? If It's been scaled up to make it challenging for let's say 75 ppl, it wouldn't even be doable for a group of 3-6.

I still believe all types of HNM content can, and should, be included in ARR.