Highly Notorious Monsters

[Radacci]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.. You aren't always going to run around with your linkshell, sometimes you'll want to do other things! This is when FATE will work really great, say that Empire x is attacking empire y and it's up to those who are logged on to help fight these battles across the entire world. Gives that player a little attack/defend/NM fight with random community members while gaining exp. From the FATE event you could form an exp/instance/quest party.

HNM needs to have there own distinctive value (what makes them different and interesting), having to dispatch a number of lesser mobs to get a special item before popping the mega mob seems like a good but old system (Maybe for lesser NMs ie Leaping Lizzy). Interactive camping like Dark Ixion and SW from FFXI would work, because you'd need to skill and coordination just to fight, and then the fight itself would hopefully be extremely hard.

In others defense don't mind me i'm a bias former FFXI player, however I have also played Tera/WoW/GW2/PW/SWtor and saw the glaringly obvious mistakes that have occurred by making everything instanced and so you can run through a world without even interacting with others in it. Excuse the essay, I just think this will be a big part of endgame which will be VERY important to our playerbase and deserves contributions by those of us who have experience in MMOs.

and since HNM are open world anyways, what's the difference?
sounds silly you'd need to be in a LS party, otherwise the fight couldn't possible need any skill....
it would surely be harder to coordinate things with random people outside party, but that doesn't mean it needs to be a no-skill fight. DPS can do their thing, tanks can tank, WHM can curaga everyone around them, etc.
You can do any tactical fight with a group; if everyone knows what they are doing you dont even need to discuss tactics. If everyone knows what they are doing, you don't even need a party; which is why a FATE can be as tactical as any instanced/group boss anyways. And i'm sure HNM were buttonmashers with multiple parties there anyways. Just like atomos was with 100ppl; but with just 10 ppl, something else entirely.
I wouldn't mind if there something specific you need to do to summon some HNM or whatever, but it wouldn't really change the fact it turns into buttonmasher with lots of people there? Unless you summon it somewhere else, with your LS. But that removes the point of open world content anyways. And if it don't need lots of people to kill it, i don't know what's so *highly* notorious about them anyways.

Oh and i just watched a vid of 2 ppl fighting Dark Ixion...i didn't see any of the skill needed to fight it...
Can you link any vid showing some fight needing tactics? that couldn't be done in FATE?

[Exn]

and since HNM are open world anyways, what's the difference?
sounds silly you'd need to be in a LS party, otherwise the fight couldn't possible need any skill....
it would surely be harder to coordinate things with random people outside party, but that doesn't mean it needs to be a no-skill fight. DPS can do their thing, tanks can tank, WHM can curaga everyone around them, etc.
You can do any tactical fight with a group; if everyone knows what they are doing you dont even need to discuss tactics. If everyone knows what they are doing, you don't even need a party; which is why a FATE can be as tactical as any instanced/group boss anyways. And i'm sure HNM were buttonmashers with multiple parties there anyways. Just like atomos was with 100ppl; but with just 10 ppl, something else entirely.
I wouldn't mind if there something specific you need to do to summon some HNM or whatever, but it wouldn't really change the fact it turns into buttonmasher with lots of people there? Unless you summon it somewhere else, with your LS. But that removes the point of open world content anyways. And if it don't need lots of people to kill it, i don't know what's so *highly* notorious about them anyways.

Oh and i just watched a vid of 2 ppl fighting Dark Ixion...i didn't see any of the skill needed to fight it...
Can you link any vid showing some fight needing tactics? that couldn't be done in FATE?

Spoken like someone who's never experienced a similar system ( see RIFT, GW2,etc.). Non-claimable 'HNM' has always been a spamfest of just throwing bodies at it until it dies. Sure you could try to grab a small group of friends to try to strategically make it a challenge, but what's the point when you've already 'beat' the 'HNM' ten times last week with the rest of the server who was online at the time.. And nothing is stopping other players from showing up and ruining your attempt at executing it in your fashion.

Claimable HNM in XI was never 'button-mash' as you tried to claim (well maybe after level cap was maxed at 99 and you went back to faceroll old content...like your DI vid - even tho he was always easy to kite, harder to kill). Clearly you never attempted it per Abyssea ( or at all.). I'm not arguing that HNM were very hard either (even though you wouldn't b able to tell that by watching some LS wipe) but compared to non-claimable hop-in hop-out style 'HNM' its a complete joke. They don't even compare as a matter of fact. And yes, some HNM did require you to have a lot of ppl to kill it.. Again I guess your not speaking from experience, not just claimable HNM can require a lot of ppl, but dungeons/raids too very easily, mmos have been using dps checks as an aspect of the encounter for years.

[Radacci]

Spoken like someone who's never experienced a similar system ( see RIFT, GW2,etc.). Non-claimable 'HNM' has always been a spamfest of just throwing bodies at it until it dies. Sure you could try to grab a small group of friends to try to strategically make it a challenge, but what's the point when you've already 'beat' the 'HNM' ten times last week with the rest of the server who was online at the time.. And nothing is stopping other players from showing up and ruining your attempt at executing it in your fashion.

Claimable HNM in XI was never 'button-mash' as you tried to claim (well maybe after level cap was maxed at 99 and you went back to faceroll old content...like your DI vid - even tho he was always easy to kite, harder to kill). Clearly you never attempted it per Abyssea ( or at all.). I'm not arguing that HNM were very hard either (even though you wouldn't b able to tell that by watching some LS wipe) but compared to non-claimable hop-in hop-out style 'HNM' its a complete joke. They don't even compare as a matter of fact. And yes, some HNM did require you to have a lot of ppl to kill it.. Again I guess your not speaking from experience, not just claimable HNM can require a lot of ppl, but dungeons/raids too very easily, mmos have been using dps checks as an aspect of the encounter for years.

I have never played XI no.
So enlighten me how claimable bosses are harder, and need more skill?
to quote you "And nothing is stopping other players from showing up and ruining your attempt at executing it in your fashion" so it's just a matter of your ego wanting to be 1 of few to kill it? which brings me back to my point, why even have it as open world content at all? lets just make it instanced, so god forbid, you're not forced to endure the community interfering with your business....in an MMO...

[EinSoFZ]

I have never played XI no.
So enlighten me how claimable bosses are harder, and need more skill?
to quote you "And nothing is stopping other players from showing up and ruining your attempt at executing it in your fashion" so it's just a matter of your ego wanting to be 1 of few to kill it? which brings me back to my point, why even have it as open world content at all? lets just make it instanced, so god forbid, you're not forced to endure the community interfering with your business....in an MMO...

I've mostly been reading the thread, but when you said this I got an idea of why making everything instanced or poppable is actually bad. As a community it is often things like HNM camping or similar such things which bring us together and make for an active and varied game. To say, we're all players in the same game so to some degree what someone else is doing is your business. The items other people get end up being the ones you buy; this is direct result of whatever activity they chose to do and if they were to stop doing it, it'd be more obvious that one person's business affects that of another.

A major point of an MMO is community. Instanced material requiring only a single party of people you may know is fine, but it's important that there are things that also bring player's together in a way that is open and less confined in space/time. Sometimes it's fun to wait, anticipate and finally get the kill or see it.

[Phe]

Sometimes it's fun to wait

excuse me Sir, but i lol'd hard.

say no to claim wars and say no to camping for hours.

[EinSoFZ]

excuse me Sir, but i lol'd hard.

say no to claim wars and say no to camping for hours.

I know it sounds ridiculous to some and despite the amounts of bullshit it often entails it's not something I'd want to see entirely eliminated.

Seeing Fafnir or other such things was just fun even if your group didn't claim. As a community I think it brings us closer to each other which isn't a bad thing. If it's not something you're doing all day every day, it's a fun experience. It's an option of how to play the game. Saying no to it is just asking them to make the game less varied really. I wouldn't want to see 3-4 hour windows again, but an unpredictable pop time should be an element.

[Phe]

I know it sounds ridiculous to some and despite the amounts of bullshit it often entails it's not something I'd want to see entirely eliminated.

Seeing Fafnir or other such things was just fun even if your group didn't claim. As a community I think it brings us closer to each other which isn't a bad thing. If it's not something you're doing all day every day, it's a fun experience. It's an option of how to play the game. Saying no to it is just asking them to make the game less varied really. I wouldn't want to see 3-4 hour windows again, but an unpredictable pop time should be an element.

i did fafnir too and i hated it.
was just doin it for some DKP.
it was basically doing RL stuff for 25 mins,
coming back to the PC,
buffing and waiting 5 mins for the time window,
and going afk again.
repeated until it actually pops what could be 3 hours.
i mean wtf?

seriously.
please let me point out one thing to you all.

EVERY HOUR THAT YOU SIT IN FRONT OF YOUR PC...
STARING ON THE SCREEN DOING NOTHING BUT WAITING...
IS ONE HOUR THAT YOU STEAL YOURSELF FROM YOUR LIFETIME...
AND YOU WON'T GET IT BACK. EVER.

think about it.
that's all.

[Radacci]

I've mostly been reading the thread, but when you said this I got an idea of why making everything instanced or poppable is actually bad. As a community it is often things like HNM camping or similar such things which bring us together and make for an active and varied game. To say, we're all players in the same game so to some degree what someone else is doing is your business. The items other people get end up being the ones you buy; this is direct result of whatever activity they chose to do and if they were to stop doing it, it'd be more obvious that one person's business affects that of another.

A major point of an MMO is community. Instanced material requiring only a single party of people you may know is fine, but it's important that there are things that also bring player's together in a way that is open and less confined in space/time. Sometimes it's fun to wait, anticipate and finally get the kill or see it.

yes i agree, i was just being sarcastic i wanted to point out that his argument that HNMs etc should be exclusive or something is silly. and his idea of *other people interfering* is selfish. and MMO is about community etc, and there's none of that if you wanna get some item, and summon HNM somewhere away from others, to do it your way. or maximizing you chance at claiming.
But i do understand that FATEs can be a bit crappy in the sense that people just come together when the FATE start, then everyone just leave, as it was with Atomos; except most people new exactly when it spawned, and quite predictably where. It didn't really create any big window to open up any conversations. Then when it's over you just loot, and port somewhere else.
But i believe they will make something good. They havn't really messed up anything yet that i know about.

[Exn]

yes i agree, i was just being sarcastic i wanted to point out that his argument that HNMs etc should be exclusive or something is silly. and his idea of *other people interfering* is selfish. and MMO is about community etc

Actually, I already addressed that myself..

The window system 1st) staggered the pops so it wouldn't pop at the same time everyday (eliminating anyone who was unavailable at let's say 'noon' every single day..) 2) increased the suspense and community by adding some randomness to when exactly it was going to pop (obviously one one possible pop window takes that all away.. Ppl would just show up a minute before the pop, not claim, and roll out, event over.. I met over half my friends list on various campings of NM and HNM) 3) allowed and encouraged pug and ls pt activities in between the windows (for the ppl who understood SE obviously didn't want you twiddling your thumbs or staring at a screen with no action for hrs..which changed with dark ixion/sw, though they had a much shorter open window).

So no.. I'm not being selfish.. Selfish would be asking SE to exclude a system that you don't even understand..

[Exn]

I have never played XI no.
So enlighten me how claimable bosses are harder, and need more skill?
to quote you "And nothing is stopping other players from showing up and ruining your attempt at executing it in your fashion" so it's just a matter of your ego wanting to be 1 of few to kill it? which brings me back to my point, why even have it as open world content at all? lets just make it instanced, so god forbid, you're not forced to endure the community interfering with your business....in an MMO...

I guess you misunderstood. This has nothing to do with ego, just the challenge and experience . I enjoying challenging content, and get bored with rather quickly the more button mashing and mindless content, as I believe you and most other ppl would too. Claimable HNM could require more skill for many reasons all centered around the fact that it's a more controlled environment. The fight itself (no help from onlookers) is limited to X number of players for X amount of time. Unclaimable mob could also be scaled up to accommodate for the many variables will change the experience of the encounter, as I also suggested earlier, but it's always going to be difficult to incorporate strategy when there's little or no control of the ppl in the encounter. Also if/when the zone is dead how do you keep the content balanced? If It's been scaled up to make it challenging for let's say 75 ppl, it wouldn't even be doable for a group of 3-6.

I still believe all types of HNM content can, and should, be included in ARR.