Highly Notorious Monsters

[ThePatriarch]

The problem won't be necessarily in the long respawn or short respwan. I hear you and see where you are coming from, but it ultimatelly comes to what gear is best.

If SE makes free roaming NM's drop the best gear in the game, you will inevitably have bots camping it, which is not a good thing.

We already have some NM's that are free roaming and noone kills them anymore since the crap they drop is crap. (except dodore).

I absolutelly want harder stuff as per your OP, i just don't think having open world HNM is the answer. Maybe SE can add more NM's roaming freely that drop certain gear that is beneficial to certain classes, but don't make it "the best" because that will lead to issues.

I sort-of agree. I don't think HNM's should drop all of the best gear. But free-roaming, open-world NM's should drop some great pieces.

I'm going to do what you all love, and reference FFXI:

Dynamis game you AF/Relics

HNM's gave you Defending Rings/Ridill's

Regular NM's gave you O.Kotes/Emp. Pin

Limbus gave you Homam/AF Upgrades.

Notice how half is Open-World, half is instanced. And that is just a morsel of the way drops went.

Again, I don't think HNM's should drop every great piece of gear. But should they drop some amazing pieces? Yes.

Instances should be giving out equally impressive drops at the same time (of course depending on difficulty/etc, we don't want hand outs).

[Peptaru]

If they drop amazing pieces its going to bring back the worst in people, just like XI, unless they pop often enough and drop often enough that hnm campers can all get it. One Ls uses 16 or 24 or even 8 people to camp the incoming HNMs. It drops one amazing item, on average, every 2 weeks (and that's generous compared to drings and ridills). It will take at least 4 months for a group of 8 to get one for each person..... let's say there are even 5 LS's interested, that's gettin up toward two years... and so on and so on. . . and we all know how patient people can be. Here come the bots!

It will take a massively overhauled system to implement the fun of XI HNMs without the bullcrap of XI HNMs. My guess is by the time a balance is struck it's not going to be what anyone wants it to be (no matter which side of the debate you choose) and will resemble just silly filler content. I hope there is a good balance found and everyone gets what they want. They've done a good job of keepin the same crap that happened in XI from happening here and I hope it stays that way no matter what content is added.

[ArnoMorley]

Yeah and the game has also sucked so far

[ThePatriarch]

If they drop amazing pieces its going to bring back the worst in people, just like XI, unless they pop often enough and drop often enough that hnm campers can all get it. One Ls uses 16 or 24 or even 8 people to camp the incoming HNMs. It drops one amazing item, on average, every 2 weeks (and that's generous compared to drings and ridills). It will take at least 4 months for a group of 8 to get one for each person..... let's say there are even 5 LS's interested, that's gettin up toward two years... and so on and so on. . . and we all know how patient people can be. Here come the bots!

It will take a massively overhauled system to implement the fun of XI HNMs without the bullcrap of XI HNMs. My guess is by the time a balance is struck it's not going to be what anyone wants it to be (no matter which side of the debate you choose) and will resemble just silly filler content. I hope there is a good balance found and everyone gets what they want. They've done a good job of keepin the same crap that happened in XI from happening here and I hope it stays that way no matter what content is added.

Making gear rare/ex would be a good start. Pop conditions will make it hard for bots to cover and entire zone (if SE decided to go that route).

I do like the difficulty in obtaining the items though. I think its good everyone can't obtain that "elite" rare in 2 weeks. I think it should take longer than that.

Granted, not all gear needs to be that. Most gear should be able to be obtained easier. But an MMO should include those "near impossible" pieces for the hardcore to strive for. You have to cater to all sides.

Its not going to hurt the casuals to have the hardcore crowd up at 4 am trying to get that one amazing ring.

[lord_Niax]

Yeah and the game has also sucked so far

Ya know Im not quite too sure what your talking about. Yoshi FTW

[Wynn]

Making gear rare/ex would be a good start. Pop conditions will make it hard for bots to cover and entire zone (if SE decided to go that route).

I do like the difficulty in obtaining the items though. I think its good everyone can't obtain that "elite" rare in 2 weeks. I think it should take longer than that.

Granted, not all gear needs to be that. Most gear should be able to be obtained easier. But an MMO should include those "near impossible" pieces for the hardcore to strive for. You have to cater to all sides.

Its not going to hurt the casuals to have the hardcore crowd up at 4 am trying to get that one amazing ring.

Even if you make the gear unable to be traded you will have botters and just regular douchy player LSs who will camp that spawn and make others pay them to get the item. It happened in XI, it will happen here unless measures are taken to somehow prevent that. I have no idea what could be done to stop that though.

And it does hurt casuals if the gear becomes designated by the community as have or GTFO.

Personally I feel good gear, if not 100% crafted, should come from major challenges. NMs, at least to me, are not that. They are zergable mobs where the only challenge involved is staying awake long enough to try and claim it when it pops which, for the most part, you are screwed before you start because some other guy is cheating.

[ThePatriarch]

Even if you make the gear unable to be traded you will have botters and just regular douchy player LSs who will camp that spawn and make others pay them to get the item. It happened in XI, it will happen here unless measures are taken to somehow prevent that. I have no idea what could be done to stop that though.

And it does hurt casuals if the gear becomes designated by the community as have or GTFO.

Personally I feel good gear, if not 100% crafted, should come from major challenges. NMs, at least to me, are not that. They are zergable mobs where the only challenge involved is staying awake long enough to try and claim it when it pops which, for the most part, you are screwed before you start because some other guy is cheating.

I have to disagree, although I appreciate your input. It's so nice being able to discuss conflicting opinions in a mature manner.

We have discussed plenty of methods to make botting pointless (set HNM spawn area to the majority of an entire zone, don't make it just one designated spot).

But you are telling me that casuals should be able to obtain the most elite gear in an MMO? I think that is folly, good sir.

Casuals are called casuals, because what? They play casually. There should be items that are out of reach of casual players. If you make an MMO that doesn't contain items that are incredibly rare/difficult to obtain you are going to be trumping quite a few of the hardcore players. HNM's aren't hard to implement, and they would keep alot of us busy and satisfied.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if you remember the early years of HNM's, but the majority of them weren't "zergable". Strategies were built, lines were closely followed to avoid wipes. Fafnir, KB, Kirin, etc those were not zerged back when they first came out. It took quite a while before DD had enough power to plow through those mobs in just a couple of minutes.

But as you see with our instanced content, we already have speed runs. These events haven't even been out for 6 months...

I'm sorry, but this game needs an assortment of challenges, and HNM's is one of them.

[elreed]

Would be great having massive PvE HNM's more in the way that Guild Wars 2 has, you go to an area and then suddenly a giant Mob appears and requires lots of people to kill it not just a party, it could work if the game itself could make alliances at those moments, i dont want nothing like using artillery of any sort just players versus this HNM, the drops could go randomly to a general loot list with a need/greed system so at the end will be your luck the one that decides, and make those drops rare/ex so if you have any of those drops you cant vote at all on that item, and of course offering a good bunch of company seals too.

They could tie those events to npc's like Alfgar, after the HNM pops in the area (they could even make dramatic changes in the enviroment to impose fear) the npc instantly shouts in the city asking for help and give some time to start the event (in the meanwhile the HNM could be attacking a town or just making roars or whatever they think best lol), so at the end if they offer really good items you wont get short on ppl for those events, and everyone will get their random pop HNM's that are asking.

[Peptaru]

If you extend the pop area you'll have the speed hackers winnin claim, and bot or no there's going to be mpk unless they alter the current system or severely limit where the mobs appear at. With the way XIV is set up I personally take no issue with HNMs being treated like leve mobs. Sorry spectators, it is someone else's mob. you can look, but don't touch. Make them hard, make them strategic, make them something that hacks/bots/mpk/assanine behavior can't interfere with. Inviting that element into a game that doesn't have to put up with it now seems very dangerous.

Edit: I see people talkin about a need/greed system, but everyone just clicks need anyway if they want something. i don't believe it would help in this particular subject.

[Wynn]

I have to disagree, although I appreciate your input. It's so nice being able to discuss conflicting opinions in a mature manner.

We have discussed plenty of methods to make botting pointless (set HNM spawn area to the majority of an entire zone, don't make it just one designated spot).

But you are telling me that casuals should be able to obtain the most elite gear in an MMO? I think that is folly, good sir.

Casuals are called casuals, because what? They play casually. There should be items that are out of reach of casual players. If you make an MMO that doesn't contain items that are incredibly rare/difficult to obtain you are going to be trumping quite a few of the hardcore players. HNM's aren't hard to implement, and they would keep alot of us busy and satisfied.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if you remember the early years of HNM's, but the majority of them weren't "zergable". Strategies were built, lines were closely followed to avoid wipes. Fafnir, KB, Kirin, etc those were not zerged back when they first came out. It took quite a while before DD had enough power to plow through those mobs in just a couple of minutes.

But as you see with our instanced content, we already have speed runs. These events haven't even been out for 6 months...

I'm sorry, but this game needs an assortment of challenges, and HNM's is one of them.

I don't believe that casual players should have everything that players who put more effort into the game have. However, the real problem is when a good item is designated by the players as absolutely must have. Then no longer can casuals say whatever, they have to go get it or they can't even play when they log in because groups will turn their noses up at them.

When you make a piece of gear so good compared to everything else, players tend to call everything else gimp. You MUST have the best item even if it's only a couple stat points better. That's really where the problem starts. But if the drop isn't that good then what's the point of farming the NM? So you have two bad situations and depending on where you sit in the discussion one may not may not matter to you. To me, it is better to not allow this kind of gear to drop in the first place than to create a situation where the majority of players are inconvenienced or even outright denied the enjoyment of the game because of the introduction of the alpha item.

I think NMs are fun and I want to see lots more in the game. Especially if they are unique and challenging. But, I think they should not drop great gear. Trophies, achieves, things to put in your house, and stuff of that nature? Great. Let's have that.