Highly Notorious Monsters

[ThePatriarch]

If they drop amazing pieces its going to bring back the worst in people, just like XI, unless they pop often enough and drop often enough that hnm campers can all get it. One Ls uses 16 or 24 or even 8 people to camp the incoming HNMs. It drops one amazing item, on average, every 2 weeks (and that's generous compared to drings and ridills). It will take at least 4 months for a group of 8 to get one for each person..... let's say there are even 5 LS's interested, that's gettin up toward two years... and so on and so on. . . and we all know how patient people can be. Here come the bots!

It will take a massively overhauled system to implement the fun of XI HNMs without the bullcrap of XI HNMs. My guess is by the time a balance is struck it's not going to be what anyone wants it to be (no matter which side of the debate you choose) and will resemble just silly filler content. I hope there is a good balance found and everyone gets what they want. They've done a good job of keepin the same crap that happened in XI from happening here and I hope it stays that way no matter what content is added.

Making gear rare/ex would be a good start. Pop conditions will make it hard for bots to cover and entire zone (if SE decided to go that route).

I do like the difficulty in obtaining the items though. I think its good everyone can't obtain that "elite" rare in 2 weeks. I think it should take longer than that.

Granted, not all gear needs to be that. Most gear should be able to be obtained easier. But an MMO should include those "near impossible" pieces for the hardcore to strive for. You have to cater to all sides.

Its not going to hurt the casuals to have the hardcore crowd up at 4 am trying to get that one amazing ring.

[Wynn]

Making gear rare/ex would be a good start. Pop conditions will make it hard for bots to cover and entire zone (if SE decided to go that route).

I do like the difficulty in obtaining the items though. I think its good everyone can't obtain that "elite" rare in 2 weeks. I think it should take longer than that.

Granted, not all gear needs to be that. Most gear should be able to be obtained easier. But an MMO should include those "near impossible" pieces for the hardcore to strive for. You have to cater to all sides.

Its not going to hurt the casuals to have the hardcore crowd up at 4 am trying to get that one amazing ring.

Even if you make the gear unable to be traded you will have botters and just regular douchy player LSs who will camp that spawn and make others pay them to get the item. It happened in XI, it will happen here unless measures are taken to somehow prevent that. I have no idea what could be done to stop that though.

And it does hurt casuals if the gear becomes designated by the community as have or GTFO.

Personally I feel good gear, if not 100% crafted, should come from major challenges. NMs, at least to me, are not that. They are zergable mobs where the only challenge involved is staying awake long enough to try and claim it when it pops which, for the most part, you are screwed before you start because some other guy is cheating.

[ThePatriarch]

Even if you make the gear unable to be traded you will have botters and just regular douchy player LSs who will camp that spawn and make others pay them to get the item. It happened in XI, it will happen here unless measures are taken to somehow prevent that. I have no idea what could be done to stop that though.

And it does hurt casuals if the gear becomes designated by the community as have or GTFO.

Personally I feel good gear, if not 100% crafted, should come from major challenges. NMs, at least to me, are not that. They are zergable mobs where the only challenge involved is staying awake long enough to try and claim it when it pops which, for the most part, you are screwed before you start because some other guy is cheating.

I have to disagree, although I appreciate your input. It's so nice being able to discuss conflicting opinions in a mature manner.

We have discussed plenty of methods to make botting pointless (set HNM spawn area to the majority of an entire zone, don't make it just one designated spot).

But you are telling me that casuals should be able to obtain the most elite gear in an MMO? I think that is folly, good sir.

Casuals are called casuals, because what? They play casually. There should be items that are out of reach of casual players. If you make an MMO that doesn't contain items that are incredibly rare/difficult to obtain you are going to be trumping quite a few of the hardcore players. HNM's aren't hard to implement, and they would keep alot of us busy and satisfied.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if you remember the early years of HNM's, but the majority of them weren't "zergable". Strategies were built, lines were closely followed to avoid wipes. Fafnir, KB, Kirin, etc those were not zerged back when they first came out. It took quite a while before DD had enough power to plow through those mobs in just a couple of minutes.

But as you see with our instanced content, we already have speed runs. These events haven't even been out for 6 months...

I'm sorry, but this game needs an assortment of challenges, and HNM's is one of them.

[Wynn]

I have to disagree, although I appreciate your input. It's so nice being able to discuss conflicting opinions in a mature manner.

We have discussed plenty of methods to make botting pointless (set HNM spawn area to the majority of an entire zone, don't make it just one designated spot).

But you are telling me that casuals should be able to obtain the most elite gear in an MMO? I think that is folly, good sir.

Casuals are called casuals, because what? They play casually. There should be items that are out of reach of casual players. If you make an MMO that doesn't contain items that are incredibly rare/difficult to obtain you are going to be trumping quite a few of the hardcore players. HNM's aren't hard to implement, and they would keep alot of us busy and satisfied.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if you remember the early years of HNM's, but the majority of them weren't "zergable". Strategies were built, lines were closely followed to avoid wipes. Fafnir, KB, Kirin, etc those were not zerged back when they first came out. It took quite a while before DD had enough power to plow through those mobs in just a couple of minutes.

But as you see with our instanced content, we already have speed runs. These events haven't even been out for 6 months...

I'm sorry, but this game needs an assortment of challenges, and HNM's is one of them.

I don't believe that casual players should have everything that players who put more effort into the game have. However, the real problem is when a good item is designated by the players as absolutely must have. Then no longer can casuals say whatever, they have to go get it or they can't even play when they log in because groups will turn their noses up at them.

When you make a piece of gear so good compared to everything else, players tend to call everything else gimp. You MUST have the best item even if it's only a couple stat points better. That's really where the problem starts. But if the drop isn't that good then what's the point of farming the NM? So you have two bad situations and depending on where you sit in the discussion one may not may not matter to you. To me, it is better to not allow this kind of gear to drop in the first place than to create a situation where the majority of players are inconvenienced or even outright denied the enjoyment of the game because of the introduction of the alpha item.

I think NMs are fun and I want to see lots more in the game. Especially if they are unique and challenging. But, I think they should not drop great gear. Trophies, achieves, things to put in your house, and stuff of that nature? Great. Let's have that.

[ThePatriarch]

I don't believe that casual players should have everything that players who put more effort into the game have. However, the real problem is when a good item is designated by the players as absolutely must have. Then no longer can casuals say whatever, they have to go get it or they can't even play when they log in because groups will turn their noses up at them.

When you make a piece of gear so good compared to everything else, players tend to call everything else gimp. You MUST have the best item even if it's only a couple stat points better. That's really where the problem starts. But if the drop isn't that good then what's the point of farming the NM? So you have two bad situations and depending on where you sit in the discussion one may not may not matter to you. To me, it is better to not allow this kind of gear to drop in the first place than to create a situation where the majority of players are inconvenienced or even outright denied the enjoyment of the game because of the introduction of the alpha item.

I think NMs are fun and I want to see lots more in the game. Especially if they are unique and challenging. But, I think they should not drop great gear. Trophies, achieves, things to put in your house, and stuff of that nature? Great. Let's have that.

So you want HNM's to drop novelty items to decorate our houses with? I'm sorry but that sounds ridiculous.

Lets introduce HNMs but give them trophies to say that we beat them and be done with them. That way we can get back to doing nothing... I must disagree on this as well. HNMs (imo) should drop great items, possibly some money drops too.

That would also take the excitement, thrill, and the majority of fun away from gathering at camp, getting claim and killing it.

HNM's need Great Weapon/Armor/etc drops. Not just trinkets to say we've beaten it. I think titles did a great job at that.

So not only do I have a Ridill equipped, but my title is Fafnir Slayer. That is alot cooler than a tree in my mog house.

If you extend the pop area you'll have the speed hackers winnin claim, and bot or no there's going to be mpk unless they alter the current system or severely limit where the mobs appear at. With the way XIV is set up I personally take no issue with HNMs being treated like leve mobs. Sorry spectators, it is someone else's mob. you can look, but don't touch. Make them hard, make them strategic, make them something that hacks/bots/mpk/assanine behavior can't interfere with. Inviting that element into a game that doesn't have to put up with it now seems very dangerous.

This defeats the purpose of having Open-World HNMs. We don't want them to be instanced.

[Wynn]

HNMs (imo) should drop great items, possibly some money drops too.

I'd actually be 100% ok with cash drops. That sounds good to me.

[Coglin]

I don't believe that casual players should have everything that players who put more effort into the game have. However, the real problem is when a good item is designated by the players as absolutely must have. Then no longer can casuals say whatever, they have to go get it or they can't even play when they log in because groups will turn their noses up at them.

That arguement is a bit on the ridiculous side. The same issues could come from an instanced situation, Especially if they add the well requested multi-group instances. Not to mention, when you figure in the impotence of gear in general, your point becomes slightly comical. I mean we can pretty much complete any in game content naked. Your arguement against HNMs is that there gear drop, which would be just as applicable a drop from an instance, might make casuals less valide to harder core players?

[Wynn]

That arguement is a bit on the ridiculous side. The same issues could come from an instanced situation, Especially if they add the well requested multi-group instances. Not to mention, when you figure in the impotence of gear in general, your point becomes slightly comical. I mean we can pretty much complete any in game content naked. Your arguement against HNMs is that there gear drop, which would be just as applicable a drop from an instance, might make casuals less valide to harder core players?

How exactly is that comical? It happens in MMOs all the time. You'd have to have your head buried in the sand to say you've never seen this happen in an MMO.