Highly Notorious Monsters

[Kikosho]

Also leads to it being nearly impossible to find a ToD once youve lost it.

That is completely fine.

And I see you still haven't picked up on my point. It was blatant and blunt. I want to play the game, not fill the time with something else cause the only option the game provides me is to wait. The 30 minute spawn window is just an archaic design flaw. LS "competition" for HNMs was about as competitive as playing one game of Paper, Rock, Scissors. The fact you still think the methods of FFXI are fine as is is unsettling.

[Jeronlmo]

That is completely fine.

And I see you still haven't picked up on my point. It was blatant and blunt. I want to play the game, not fill the time with something else cause the only option the game provides me is to wait. The 30 minute spawn window is just an archaic design flaw. LS "competition" for HNMs was about as competitive as playing one game of Paper, Rock, Scissors. The fact you still think the methods of FFXI are fine as is is unsettling.

And I see you still haven't picked up on my point. I answered your point many times, go do Einherjar (or an equaly relevant event in FF14 terms that we are asking to be also released with HNM's), this is blatant and blunt, you personally do not have to enjoy HNM's, there could easily be just like in FF11 an alternate event for the exact same gear and even more with higher drop rates, and the event lasted 30min's in total with no downtime. HNM's are filler between large events, if you play so little you do not need filler, then you do not have to do it, but saying people who play more than should get nothing because we need to be dragged down to your level is unsettling.

[Kikosho]

And I see you still haven't picked up on my point. I answered your point many times, go do Einherjar (or an equaly relevant event in FF14 terms that we are asking to be also released with HNM's), this is blatant and blunt, you personally do not have to enjoy HNM's, there could easily be just like in FF11 an alternate event for the exact same gear and even more with higher drop rates, and the event lasted 30min's in total with no downtime. HNM's are filler between large events, if you play so little you do not need filler, then you do not have to do it, but saying people who play more than should get nothing because we need to be dragged down to your level is unsettling.

You are completely dense. Never once did I complain in my posts about gear issues and alternative means of acquiring them. Feel free to look them over again.

My ls in XI did all the events on cooldowns and did HNMs when it didn't conflict with whatever we had scheduled unless it was a King chance at which point only Dynamis and Limbus took precedence. Not always, but we also camped them during JP time. And it still was the most boring thing to do. The competition among ls that people tout as a pro for HNMs is laughable as it was either who could bot harder or load faster. So please, try again and tell me how wonderful XI's HNM system is. I'm not against world spawns, just against XI's original retarded method that even SE changed themselves.

[Xatsh]

While I am not 100% up for slamming people who still play XI on forums. Jeronlmo is right, XI is dead and SE killed it doing the casual methods that many are advocating here. They removed the core element which kept the hardcores happy.

Those playing XI are playing a shell of game that tried to become casual like WoW and screwed over its current playerbase in the process. But he is right people over there think they are good because they have relics, to get in an endgame shell now they sorta expect you to have several... There is nothing hardcore left in XI, anyone who thinks there is are just kidding themselves. It is fine to like the game, just like it is fine to like WoW. But for many XI is worse then WoW now... at least WoW has content.

That is the problem with XI and why us hardcore cannot go back. They removed any and all long term goals to appease the casuals only... the hardcore were forced to flee the game. This is why myself, jeronlmo, and several other are advocating to at least keep some long term hardcore elements. To keep a chunk of the population from leaving. We need some things that you cannot just walk over to, things that require a commitment of time. People hate time sinks but it is the 1 element that keeps mmos alive. Without them you end up with WoW where the population booms after an expansion and 3 weeks later half the population is waiting on a patch for more content.

A mmo should be a game for everyone, not just a certain group.

[Andrien]

While I am not 100% up for slamming people who still play XI on forums. Jeronlmo is right, XI is dead and SE killed it doing the casual methods that many are advocating here. They removed the core element which kept the hardcores happy.

Those playing XI are playing a shell of game that tried to become casual like WoW and screwed over its current playerbase in the process. But he is right people over there think they are good because they have relics, to get in an endgame shell now they sorta expect you to have several... There is nothing hardcore left in XI, anyone who thinks there is are just kidding themselves. It is fine to like the game, just like it is fine to like WoW. But for many XI is worse then WoW now... at least WoW has content.

That is the problem with XI and why us hardcore cannot go back. They removed any and all long term goals to appease the casuals only... the hardcore were forced to flee the game. This is why myself, jeronlmo, and several other are advocating to at least keep some long term hardcore elements. To keep a chunk of the population from leaving. We need some things that you cannot just walk over to, things that require a commitment of time. People hate time sinks but it is the 1 element that keeps mmos alive. Without them you end up with WoW where the population booms after an expansion and 3 weeks later half the population is waiting on a patch for more content.

A mmo should be a game for everyone, not just a certain group.

If your idea of hardcore mean playing the waiting game, then that is your preference of choice. I agree that the game should cater to both groups, however everything else you said is purely opinion base.

Now back to another point. If someone is dedicated, and have the resources to get a relic or an empyrean weapon, then nothing should stop them. But, to upgrade them to maximum power is another story. That requires a lot of time, but the difference is that every time spent is progress.

[Xatsh]

If your idea of hardcore mean playing the waiting game, then that is your preference of choice. I agree that the game should cater to both groups, however everything else you said is purely opinion base.

Now back to another point. If someone is dedicated, and have the resources to get a relic or an empyrean weapon, then nothing should stop them. But, to upgrade them to maximum power is another story. That requires a lot of time, but the difference is that every time spent is progress.

No not really, numbers do not lie.

Look at sub count pre and post abysea. Look at relic count from vanadiel census pre abysea and look at the last one. ~50% of the sub count did not just 1 day all go hey I am going to quit and never come back.

There is no opinion in that post, everything is fact and that is the scary part. You can deny that abysea killed the game for hardcores, but there is more then enough posting that on every forum on the web that proves a lot who quit use that as the reason.

There is no such thing as content that will make everyone happy. Casual HNMS will still piss off the hardcores... that is something that everyone need to understand. So there for the only solution is to have content for everyone. It is a waste of time to try to find the magical content that makes 60hr a week players happy and 2hr a week players happy. No mmo has done it and I do not see any doing it in the near future.

[Andrien]

No not really, numbers do not lie.

Look at sub count pre and post abysea. Look at relic count from vanadiel census pre abysea and look at the last one. ~50% of the sub count did not just 1 day all go hey I am going to quit and never come back.

There is no opinion in that post, everything is fact and that is the scary part. You can deny that abysea killed the game for hardcores, but there is more then enough posting that on every forum on the web that proves a lot who quit use that as the reason.

Fact, the game is not dead.. Secondly, this forum is only 3% of the entire FFXIV gaming community. Not sure about FFXI.
Fact, the game is still profitable.
Fact, the game is old.. I'm not surprised.

[Xatsh]

yes XI is still profitable, they are running it on a skeleton crew and all the original development cost are paid for.

But profitable with 150-200k subs is different the profitable with 350-400k subs. XI is not dead but it is dying, and it is in a decline faster then ever before. If the new expansion does not slow it down FFXI will probably be f2p or a hybrid model by the end of the year.

Stagnate is better then 99% of other mmos on the market where it is drastic declines every year. I am sure games like Aion, SWToR, Tera, wish they could of had XI's stagnation. Lol even WoW is losing what like 500-700k subs a year, think panda land might of slowed it some. But yea I am sure almost every mmo wishes they could hold their peak numbers for near a decade.

Anyways I am done on the XI topic, this thread is about hnms. And I wish we would talk about how we can implement them without screwing over casuals or making them forced to get the best gear. Instead of this pointless hardcore vs casual.

[Alhanelem]

When you list your personal bad experiences with lets say HNM's, thats your ls, that is valid, you hate windows because your LS would 100% have to be very inefficient to not consider HNM's as anything but downtime between events.

Hey look, another personal attack. You just don't get it, do you? Slamming me or the people I play with isn't an effective means of argument.

It wasn't that I had "bad experiences" with HNMs. I was part of a very successful LS for several years. That doesn't mean that HNM were my favorite part of that experience- And just because I didn't enjoy this or that, doesn't mean that me or my LS mates were doing a poor job. You are basically trying to argue that "If you didn't like the HNM experience, then your LS must be bad." That is both false and a logically fallacious argument. My personal level of enjoyment of certain aspects of HNM does not imply any attributes or qualities of the other players I went to HNM with. I've defeated nearly every HNM in FFXI at least once, that doesn't mean that there are no aspects of the system that are flawed.

Just in case you're not familiar with the type of fallacy you're employing, here's the wikipedia entry for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

[MikeXiv]

I dont understand why people oppose to any type of content that's suggested. If you don't like it then don't do it. When you go to the mall there is a variety of clothing stores something for everyone. If the store doesnt suit your needs you won't go in there correct? If your upset because its the only way to obtain that piece of gear then tough shit there is tons of other armor. I also speak on for both sides of the fence. I would never go for a relic in xi it was too time consuming and boring when i seen someone with it i would congratulate. In no way shape or form i would feel i deserve something rare without putting effort