Highly Notorious Monsters

[Coglin]

Yes. Absolutely zero. Nobody bought the game because there were HNMs in it. In fact, nobody who bought the game likely knew what HNMs were.

Anyone who had played an MMO before did. Open world Named or Natorious Monsters was the standard in pretty much all MMOs.. Just because you were ignorant to that fact doesn't mean the rest of us were.

I can appreciate that you dislike the idea of HNMs. Thats great. Steer clear of them.

No one has actually offered one logical reason why they should not be implimented, because there isn't one. Its content that can add diversity. If your against diversity, then stick to the linear way you want to play, and do so. Trying to convince the rest of us, that wanting more then your linear outlook is a bad idea isn't really a logical approach

What appears to make less sense, is your making an uneducated attempt to tell us it that even if HNMs are precedented in a previous game, such as FFXI, that we shouldn't have them hear because players wouldn't have known what they were before hand? Seriously? Know that you think about it, that logic seems kind of, well.....stupid.

[KyrsIsley]

Anyone who had played an MMO before did. Open world Named or Natorious Monsters was the standard in pretty much all MMOs.. Just because you were ignorant to that fact doesn't mean the rest of us were.

I can appreciate that you dislike the idea of HNMs. Thats great. Steer clear of them.

No one has actually offered one logical reason why they should not be implimented, because there isn't one. Its content that can add diversity. If your against diversity, then stick to the linear way you want to play, and do so. Trying to convince the rest of us, that wanting more then your linear outlook is a bad idea isn't really a logical approach

What appears to make less sense, is your making an uneducated attempt to tell us it that even if HNMs are precedented in a previous game, such as FFXI, that we shouldn't have them hear because players wouldn't have known what they were before hand? Seriously? Know that you think about it, that logic seems kind of, well.....stupid.

Anyone who had played an MMO before also know about instances. Open world named or NMs was the standard of quite a few MMOs, but so was instance oriented content. Just because you are ignorant enough selectively pick the information that benefits your argument doesn't mean the rest of us are as blind as you.

People who are against HNMs are generally against it due to the long respawn timer resulting in "claim wars". It is perfectly logical to not want HNMs of that nature, because the challenge lies within preventing/reacting to the opposing parties trying to screw you over not the actual encounter. Plenty of people have proposed interesting and plausible ideas/compromises in attempt to bring back the positive aspects of HNMs (diversities, thrills, challanges..etc) while trying to prevent the negative aspects (claim wars, griefing...etc) from coming back.

What appears to make even lesser sense is you making an argument based on selective information and try to stereotype people just like the person you are replying to did.

[Coglin]

Anyone who had played an MMO before also know about instances. Open world named or NMs was the standard of quite a few MMOs, but so was instance oriented content.

Actually you wrong. There were MMOs up to that point that literally had absolutely zero instances. In the time frame of pre FFXI instancs were not the norm. They were just starting to come into play as they are today.

No. They shouldn't exist unless the problems they carried with them from FFXI are fully addressed.

This is the issue you and others seem to have here, its as if some of you can't see past FFXI when it comes to this game.. There are MMOs beyond FFXI, that had better mechanics for for endgame open world content right?

[Alhanelem]

This is you saying that HNM's had no popularity.

No, this is me saying that they were not a reason for purchase, a selling point of the game. But yes, for all intents and purposes, their popularity is and was limited. Not everybody got to do this. Hell, the majority of players in any MMO don't even reach the maximum level, much less get to do endgame content. You don't seem to understand this fact. For World of Warcraft, for instance, something like 75% of characters don't even reach level 10. HNMs weren't even popular among all high level players, many preferring to do quests, dynamis, assaults, etc or regular NMs. VERY FEW people actually got to do participate in HNMs on a regular basis.

This is you nullifying your prior statement.

No, that doesn't nullify my statement. "Advanced players" is not everyone or a majority of people. It's a small number of people- like the top 1-5% of players.

The fact that you would say that no one had any interest in HNM/NM's, is simply ignorant.

There is a MASSIVE difference between "no one" and a small number of people. You are the ignorant one, as you can't even read my post correctly.

What people are asking for in this thread is WORLD SPAWN HNMs. I'm tottally cool and fine with instanced fights and force pops. I'm NOT fine with multi-day repops, spawn windows, or any kind of HNM where different linkshells/guilds/groups of people must compete for claim.

In FFXI, "HNM" usually refers to monsters like the following: Fafnir/Nidhogg, Adamantoise/Aspidochelone, Behemoth/King Behemoth, Vrtra/Jormungand/Tiamat, Hydra/Khimaria/Cerberus, etc. All of these monsters are 24hr or longer spawns, with lengthy spawn windows forcing people to camp for hours. All of these monsters generally had multiple linkshells all accuisng eahcother of botting and cheating to get the pull. This aspect of HNM certainly wasn't popular with anyone who didn't have a bot.

[ThePatriarch]

No, this is me saying that they were not a reason for purchase, a selling point of the game. But yes, for all intents and purposes, their popularity is and was limited. Not everybody got to do this. Hell, the majority of players in any MMO don't even reach the maximum level, much less get to do endgame content. You don't seem to understand this fact. For World of Warcraft, for instance, something like 75% of characters don't even reach level 10. HNMs weren't even popular among all high level players, many preferring to do quests, dynamis, assaults, etc or regular NMs. VERY FEW people actually got to do participate in HNMs on a regular basis.

No, that doesn't nullify my statement. "Advanced players" is not everyone or a majority of people. It's a small number of people- like the top 1-5% of players.

There is a MASSIVE difference between "no one" and a small number of people. You are the ignorant one, as you can't even read my post correctly.

I don't think you actually played FFXI, or WoW. I however, played both.

75% of people didn't get past level 10? Tell me Lodestone Official Forums, how long does it take for one to get to level 10 in WoW (less than a couple of hours).

I want you to log into FFXI (if you have it), and do a "/sea all" command, tell me what you see in terms of level's. Please respond with how many people you see at max level. Furthermore I would ask you to do a percentage of people below 99, and people at 99, this way we can get a good feel at the comparison between people at max level, and people who aren't. (we wont even consider the fact that most of them have multiple 99's. (I am going to make an assumption and say that 75%+ are at maximum level).

No, that doesn't nullify my statement. "Advanced players" is not everyone or a majority of people. It's a small number of people- like the top 1-5% of players.

I'm not sure if you are being serious here. If you think that in FFXI, only 1-5% of the community participated in endgame content..

There is a MASSIVE difference between "no one" and a small number of people. You are the ignorant one, as you can't even read my post correctly.

Define a small amount of people sir. Because I think alot more than a "small" amount of people are interested in HNM's.

When it comes to ignorant, I guess making a collaborative thread with ideas about the hopeful implementation of a beloved aspect of prior SE MMO's; Which contains over 500 replies, 12000+ views, and 129 personal likes, is ignorant?

Rather, I think coming into that thread, and trying to argue the point that no one is interested in said content.. that sir, is ignorant.

ZNM are not HNM, nor are BCNM or KSNMs...

They are all Notorious Monsters.....

Zeni Notorious Monster
Burning Circle Notorious Monster
Kindred Seal Notorious Monster...

We want all of these, not just the open-world aspect. Please read before posting.

[Alhanelem]

I never botted in any form but the fact that you are against every bit of these ideas proves that you must have sucked at XI or had no friends.

No, it doesn't prove that, however your post likely proves that for you, because of how rude and insulting you're being.

I was part of a major HNM linkshell for many years, and fought nearly every HNM in the game before Voidwatch with the exception of Pandy Warden and Dark Ixion. We were all legitimate players and most of us had eventually quit because we were sick of how rampant the botting got. Think before you insult, please and thank you.

I only did HNM just a brief bit but rl came before it,

What HNM did YOU do? List them specifically, thanks.

75% of people didn't get past level 10? Tell me Lodestone Official Forums, how long does it take for one to get to level 10 in WoW (less than a couple of hours).

This is completely true and there was an article written on it somewhere. Yes, even though it might only take an hour or two to reach level 10, the vast majority characters created in the game never reached that level. There's something called a conversion rate in MMOs. It's the rate at which people actually subscribe and continue playing past the free trial.

25% is actually a very good conversion rate in the industry. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Alhanelem]

Just because some people aren't cut out for it, and like to make up reasons, and also make up facts about how bad the system

We don't make up reasons. They're valid, good reasons, and the facts are real facts, not made up.

FFXI's HNM system (again. ONLY HNMs. NOT BCNMS KSNMS ETC!!!!) was terribad. We kept doing it because we wanted the drops badly enough to keep at it, not because it was fun battling cheaters to get the claim on the monster.

BCNMs and the like are a completely seperate topic. I'd love to have those, lots and lots of them. The only thing I'm against is HNMs that are world spawns with long repop timers. Rewards from content should be rare because the content is challenging, not because you have to wait a million years just to get to experience the fight one time.

World spawning HNMs would be tolerable if they spawned frequently enough that you didn't have 100 people packed in a fishbowl all mashing provoke as hard as they can for 2 minutes every 30 minutes. But I'd still rather do BCNM/force pop content.

[ThePatriarch]

We don't make up reasons. They're valid, good reasons, and the facts are real facts, not made up.

Please post documentation that will validate your claims. Until then they remain your assumptions.

Also, we kept at it. That aspect, in and of itself kept many, many people out there on the HNM scene. I'm not saying I liked the timers (we dont wan't any more long respawn timers), but it kept people subscribed, and in game.

During Zilart, which primarily was SKY/HNM/Dynamis for endgame, there were a little over 200,000 people subbed (this was late 2004). Players leveled up, geared themselves adequately enough so that they could work their way into that content.

Comparitively, FFXIV has around 10-12,000 subscriptions. Seems like they were doing something right in their prior MMO.

Can you honestly tell me that HNM's would hurt FFXIV's chance for future success?

[Alhanelem]

The implementation of FFXI HNM system wasn't the best. It encouraged botting and required standing at one spot for hours spamming one ability every 30 mins or so.

However, bringing open world (H)NMs in XIV doesn't have to mean implementing them exactly the same way they were in XI.

Please do tell me how you could implement world spawn super bosses while totally eliminating the possibility of botting/hacking to deny others the fair opportunity to experience said super boss.

If you can come up with an implementation that solves all problems and frustrations of FFXI's system, I'm all for it.

Well sir, I think I speak for many here when I say that I am sorry that you feel the way you do. I appreciate your opinions, and hopefully you enjoy your time in FFXIV, regardless of what kind of content is implemented.

that's a really fancy way of saying. "you're wrong."

I guess if you don't like any competition of any kind between player groups, I can understand why you don't like the idea of open world HNMs.

for competition, we have PvP. competition has no place elsewhere, outside of who gets what drops when a group wins something. competing for the pull on a monster is not fun, never was fun, and never will be fun. I want to fight monsters, not watch other people fight them. there is NO skill involved in spamming your provoke macro on an NM. Taking botting out of the equation, it's simply whoever has the lowest ping or who the random claim delay hands the monster to- There's no skill involved, it's purely random luck. I'm really not sure how people find that fun. Fighting the monster itself is what's fun and it's what most of us play the game for.

[Taika]

FFXI's HNM system (again. ONLY HNMs. NOT BCNMS KSNMS ETC!!!!) was terribad. We kept doing it because we wanted the drops badly enough to keep at it, not because it was fun.

The implementation of FFXI HNM system wasn't the best. It encouraged botting and required standing at one spot for hours spamming one ability every 30 mins or so.

However, bringing open world (H)NMs in XIV doesn't have to mean implementing them exactly the same way they were in XI. There can be open world HNMs you can't really camp because their pop conditions are so random, for example. But when you do see one, it's such a rare occasion that you will feel really excited and hurry to gather your linkshell to kill it.

I guess if you don't like any competition of any kind between player groups, I can understand why you don't like the idea of open world HNMs. But does that mean other players shouldn't have them either? Personally, I can't stand PvP and was really against implementing it in XIV, but now I just think let others have their thing and I'll do something I'm more into. Not all content has to be for everyone, but the more variety the better, in my opinion.

I wasn't a HNM player in XI (nor will I be one in XIV). That didn't mean I didn't want them to exist. As I've previously stated, I feel open world HNMs (and other open world content) would make the game world feel more alive.