Highly Notorious Monsters

[KyrsIsley]

@Sephrick.

Your detailed Open-World layout you showed, I like it. So do many others.

But when you quote Yoshida with the comment of "the people have spoken"... Look at the game... It has failed miserably, and despite the recent hightened amount of players, is still failing. It needs more content catering to both crowd.

I personally love your idea of 100 man bosses. But at the same time I/many others would like KB/Faf/Tiamat type material. We have all mentioned the spawn time/area being revamped, etc etc.

Think of it less of everything being so "final" and/or "my opinion versus yours", and more of an open discusion inviting more opinions on how HNMs should be implemented

I am not sure what is the correlation between the game's failure and not having open world content. The original FFXIV failed on many different levels and the lack of contested NMs/HNMs is far from the top of the list.

I think the result of Question 10 spoke loud and clear that the majority of the players who participated in the survey would prefer "instanced" content. In FFXI, fighting over the claim and preventing another group of players from screwing with your encounter were far more challenging than the actual content itself. This is the problem with contested open world content. How successful you are in PvE content shouldn't be based on how well you can react to a Paladin of the opposing linkshell cure bombing and popping invincible on you to turn the boss hoping that will result in a wipe of your LS. This to me is fundamentally backwards, since Fafnir/KB/Tiamat were suppose to be PvE, but I worry about what other players are going to do to me more than the actual boss, doesn't that sound more like PvP to you?

[Sephrick]

I am not sure what is the correlation between the game's failure and not having open world content. The original FFXIV failed on many different levels and the lack of contested NMs/HNMs is far from the top of the list.

I think the result of Question 10 spoke loud and clear that the majority of the players who participated in the survey would prefer "instanced" content. In FFXI, fighting over the claim and preventing another group of players from screwing with your encounter were far more challenging than the actual content itself. This is the problem with contested open world content. How successful you are in PvE content shouldn't be based on how well you can react to a Paladin of the opposing linkshell cure bombing and popping invincible on you to turn the boss hoping that will result in a wipe of your LS. This to me is fundamentally backwards, since Fafnir/KB/Tiamat were suppose to be PvE, but I worry about what other players are going to do to me more than the actual boss, doesn't that sound more like PvP to you?

The discussion pretty much boils down to nostalgic folks reminiscing on the "rush" they felt while camping HNMs. The poll data suggests that the vast majority of players either never felt that rush or have no desire to experience it again.

Is either side wrong? No. So it really comes down to an issue of quid pro quo.

In implementing HNMs, players who just want to play have to give up their chance to play so that a minority can have their rush.

In implementing mostly instances, players who want HNMs have to give up that "claim rush" so that everyone can play when they log on.

There's no reason they shouldn't do both, though. As long as rewards are even. MMOs are reward-drive experiences. We collect gear to make it easier on ourselves the next time we go out to collect gear. So it's only natural that the event with th best reward will be what we spend all of out time on.

But the problem for a lot of the folks in the anti-instance crowd is that they want a pedestal to stand on too. He rush of getting claim isn't enough if there isn't some elite item to rub in others' faces.

[Jinko]

But when you quote Yoshida with the comment of "the people have spoken"... Look at the game... It has failed miserably, and despite the recent hightened amount of players, is still failing. It needs more content catering to both crowd.

The game is getting better with every patch, there is only so fast the dev team can work to polish that giant turd Tanaka left behind.

[ArnoMorley]

The game is getting better with every patch, there is only so fast the dev team can work to polish that giant turd Tanaka left behind.

This game failed because of SE's CEO not because of Tanaka. That's why even 2.0 is in danger because Wada is still forcing this boneheaded template to be designed around that caused the old game to fail.



This is a perfect example of why they just need 2 games, one for both audiences. Imo NMs were fine in XI, casual people seem to want this game to be spoon fed to them. Neither side should have to compromise, if there were two games we'd both get what we want.

People seem to misunderstand the purpose of the 24 hour spawn, it wasn't to make it hard it was to make it so you only did it once a day and moved on to other content. With a 6 hour repop like somebody suggested you'd be going back to fafnir several times a day. The only thing that would make sense is not liking would be the 3 hour spawn window, although the window rarely ended up being that long...

A good compromise to me would be instead of a 21-24 repop maybe an 18-20 hour repop and reducing the window to 2 hours max instead of 3, but the casual gamers want to make it ridiculous like the 6 hour respawn thing or having so multiple groups fight it in an instance.



In regard to the poll I think the numbers are flawed, idk when that was taken but I bet that most of the die hard XI fans had quit by the time that poll was out so of course the numbers are going to favor the crowd that wants everything to be easy.

It's also one of those issues where people are going to think they don't want it but it makes the game better. It was like the whole death penalty debate. When asked nobody in their right mind would want to lose exp on death, but when you break it down it's not wanting to lose levels on XI that made you fear dying in the first place. XIV has no death penalty but there's no fear of dying, XI's death penalty would have made fighting more exciting.

You will never be able to trust a poll on something that involves a penalty, Yoshi P and his team should have enough common sense to know better.

[Jinko]

This game failed because of SE's CEO not because of Tanaka. That's why even 2.0 is in danger because Wada is still forcing this boneheaded template to be designed around that caused the old game to fail.

That's not true, the server, the graphics engine, the UI, the animation lock all of these issue are down to Tanaka and Yoshida is making sure to correct those problems.

Tanaka doesn't know how to make mainstream games which appeal to a wide audience, he even confessed in a interview that he didn't have time to play other games, at least Yoshida has vast experience of other MMO's in the market because he has played them himself.

This is a perfect example of why they just need 2 games, one for both audiences. Imo NMs were fine in XI

They already do have 2 games.

People seem to misunderstand the purpose of the 24 hour spawn, it wasn't to make it hard it was to make it so you only did it once a day and moved on to other content

Ok then lets change Esar's idea a little:- NM's with 5mins spawn times and can only be killed/claimed once a day.

Or Nm's that can be spawned any time as long as you have the required item to pop them.

In regard to the poll I think the numbers are flawed, idk when that was taken but I bet that most of the die hard XI fans had quit by the time that poll was out so of course the numbers are going to favor the crowd that wants everything to be easy.

Well that's their problem, they had the oppertunity to give their feedback except the didn't because they left.

I think you underestimate the size of the casual crowd, go look at how many people bought FFXIII (-2), thats the kind of userbase SE are aiming for and they won't be getting those kinds of numbers with a convoluted experience like FF11.

So according to you, we should listen to your opinion and that of a specified group of people. and completely ignore the wants of another group? For the sakes of the masses lets all hope you never go into game design.

Yup this how it works, hardcore fans are in the minority, especially when you acknowledge the fact SE are aiming for casual gamers and have been from the day the game was first revealed.

SE want a WoW not a FF11.

[ArnoMorley]

That's not true, the server, the graphics engine, the UI, the animation lock all of these issue are down to Tanaka and Yoshida is making sure to correct those problems.

Tanaka doesn't know how to make mainstream games which appeal to a wide audience, he even confessed in a interview that he didn't have time to play other games, at least Yoshida has vast experience of other MMO's in the market because he has played them himself.



They already do have 2 games.



Ok then lets change Esar's idea a little:- NM's with 5mins spawn times and can only be killed/claimed once a day.

Or Nm's that can be spawned any time as long as you have the required item to pop them.

The UI and etc okay that might be partly his fault, but I would put that more on deadlines given and the people actually programming it. And so what if he doesn't know how to make a mainstream game? This copy and paste of other MMOs has got to stop, there are dozens of mainstream games out there and they're all the same damn thing. At least Tanaka's original.

And mainstream how exactly? The fact it's an anime game severely limits what they'll sell in other regions, even if it was the most fun MMO on the market with the most content they've shot themselves in the foot as far as other regions go. The best they'll get is what Japan can give them, they won't touch WoW's group.


And when I said 2 games I meant two newer games for a casual and hardcore gamers. XI does not count anymore, they nerfed the crap out of it and now just have 2 games for casual players. Even if they un-nerfed it and made it all hard again it still undid everybody's accomplishments.


5 min spawns are stupid, do you really want the entire server being able to kill stuff once a day? If that happened in XI everybody would have had speed belts, D rings in a matter of weeks. How stupid is that? And XI did have force popped nms too, but it's retarded to make the whole game that way. Claim wars and long spawn times are good things

And I think you over estimate the casual crowd. Like I said already dozens of casual games on the market so even if there are 20mil casual gamers you have to share them with every other game. If there were so many casual gamers then the fatigue system would not have been such a terrible thing, why? because the casual gamers would have never been fatigued. Punishing hard core gamers devastated their user base.

[Sephrick]

This game failed because of SE's CEO not because of Tanaka. That's why even 2.0 is in danger because Wada is still forcing this boneheaded template to be designed around that caused the old game to fail.



This is a perfect example of why they just need 2 games, one for both audiences. Imo NMs were fine in XI, casual people seem to want this game to be spoon fed to them. Neither side should have to compromise, if there were two games we'd both get what we want.

Instances aren't "spoon feeding." People need to get over this notion that instances are meant to be easy.

Yoshida said himself that the upside to instances in 2.0 is that they'll be able to have their level designers create an entire environment that is a challenge, not just a claim war followed by a a joke of a fight.

People seem to misunderstand the purpose of the 24 hour spawn, it wasn't to make it hard it was to make it so you only did it once a day and moved on to other content. With a 6 hour repop like somebody suggested you'd be going back to fafnir several times a day. The only thing that would make sense is not liking would be the 3 hour spawn window, although the window rarely ended up being that long...

If SE feels they need to slow people down, they can put longer cool downs on the instances. That way everyone gets a chance once a day and when they can coordinate schedules with their friends.

The timers aren't exclusive to HNMs. Sure people will complain, but they'll get over it when there's enough content to not notice.

Again, if SE feels they need to.

A good compromise to me would be instead of a 21-24 repop maybe an 18-20 hour repop and reducing the window to 2 hours max instead of 3, but the casual gamers want to make it ridiculous like the 6 hour respawn thing or having so multiple groups fight it in an instance.

That's not a compromise at all. The issue is being blocked out of content. I pay a monthly fee to play the game, not to watch someone else play it.

Plenty of compromise suggestions have been made but all the anti-instance crowd wants are claim wars. That's the core issue.

People don't want things easy or instantly gratifying. They just want to play challenging content on their own schedule. That's it. But to accommodate the HNM mechanic, a majority of the player base has to give up that "play when I have the time" aspect.

In regard to the poll I think the numbers are flawed, idk when that was taken but I bet that most of the die hard XI fans had quit by the time that poll was out so of course the numbers are going to favor the crowd that wants everything to be easy.

It's also one of those issues where people are going to think they don't want it but it makes the game better. It was like the whole death penalty debate. When asked nobody in their right mind would want to lose exp on death, but when you break it down it's not wanting to lose levels on XI that made you fear dying in the first place. XIV has no death penalty but there's no fear of dying, XI's death penalty would have made fighting more exciting.

You will never be able to trust a poll on something that involves a penalty, Yoshi P and his team should have enough common sense to know better.

The poll was taken March 2011, back before the restriction of having to have logged in within 30 days in order to log on to the forums. Anyone who purchased the game had the right to vote. So if anything, the numbers from those first two polls are exactly what SE needs to focus on. They're representative of what everyone who initially bought the game wanted out of the blank slate that was released.

As for fear of death, losing the instance is the motivator to stay alive. A few deaths may not cost the entire run, but one wipe could be the difference in a speed run. Why does there need to be salt in the wounds? Losing is penalty enough.

And besides, what fear of dying was there when "sacrifice pulls" we're a common tactic?

Exp loss was a minor annoyance on top of what was and still is the main motivating factor, wanting to win.

And what is this business about a penalty anyway? We should view not getting claim on an HNM as a penalty? For what, having a real life to attend to?

There's no reason XIV can't have epic open world battles, but they need to evolve. Once again, even XI can't afford to be "old XI" any more. Why would SE shoe horn archaic content into a new MMO when it doesn't even fit in the old one?

[Phen]

Some of the ideas here are cool. I do want to caution against the tiamat/kb etc model for a few reasons.

First, all in all these events in XI really weren't that popular. Dynamis, sky, sea etc were much more popular. I say this having done years of HNM- the overall server was not present. Most people that played XI never saw kings till Nyzul.

I think spawn timers have been beat to death, but when I think about them I still cant believe i was that crazy to do that back in the day.

That detailed break down with the mix of openworld claim etc is actually a really good plan it could work with the right amount of things to not cause a bottle neck or crazy claim fest (looking at you early abyssea).

[Peptaru]

Beware the speed hackers!

[Alerith]

Isn't it "High Notorious Monster"? Kinda like a Priest or a High Priest kinda deal?

I've heard "Hyper" in regards to some of the rage ones, but never heard of "Highly".