If running a parser makes you cynical and depressed, why do it?

[XiXiQ]

The thing I don't get about it is the no parser PLUS enrage mechs. Have both, or none. If there's no enrage there's no need for people to fret about parses. But if you are going to put DPS checks in the game, then you should give people the tools to deal with them. The half-in half-out stance makes no sense to me.


seems easier to just get rid of enrage - so what if a group spends and extra few minutes hacking at some boss? If they are dealing with the mechanics they'll live, if they aren't they won't. (and the longer it goes on the less likely they will)

[Vidu]

My thread was asking to ban parsers in leveling and MSQ content. My examples were people abusing parsers in MSQ and leveling content.

The people who decided they needed to attack in that thread were attacking me simply because I was anti-parser. So, let me make this easy for you... The pro-parser side of this basically attacks anyone who speaks up against parsers, regardless of context. Their attitudes definitely do a lot to support the idea that parsers create a toxic community.

I don't mind parsers existing for end-game raiding to help with enrage, but you people are really your own worst enemies on this issue. When you see an anti-parser sentiment being posted just take a Xanax, count to 10 and try to understand where the person is coming from before you go into blind panic attack mode.

You dont seem to be doing to great at understanding where the people who speak up for parsers are coming from either - and even though I know it probably wont matter since you seem to have made up your mind, let me try to explain why I dont think that MSQ or leveling content are so much different from raids and Extremes.

Let me preface this by saying that any abuse or harrassment is never okay - its not okay to insult someone over their numbers in Sastasha, but its equally not okay to insult someone over their numbers in E4S. Can we agree on that?

Now, with that out of the way I'd like to circle back to my point about "everyone needs to put in a content-appropriate amount of effort" - obviously Savage will require a lot more effort than a leveling dungeon but even the very first bat you encounter in Sastasha wont just drop dead if you wait long enough - well, it might, if you let your teammates kill it. As your level increases so do the expectations the game and your fellow players have of you - as is actually the case with most RPGs: The further you progress the more is asked of you. A single player game will let you know if you're not doing well enough by showing you a "Game Over"-screen. By its nature an MMO doesnt do that because there are other people who might pick up your slack, often without you - or them - even knowing.
A parser, providing you with numbers can give you that feedback and allow you to actually improve so you can play in a way that leads to you clearing the content with your group instead of having your group clear it for you.

I dont think it matters much in what kind of content we're talking about since I dont believe in carrying people no matter what the content is.
Why should some just get a pass and not be asked - in a friendly and polite manner - to be put in the level appropriate amount of effort just because its not the most difficult content in the game?
Why should it be okay for someone to be lazy or refuse to learn just because they're in a leveling dungeon?

You suggested to try to understand where a person whos against parsers in leveling content is coming from and all I can come up with is that that person must think something along the lines of "I know I'm really bad at this job, but I cba to learn it properly, its just a leveling dungeon anyways so why should I care about playing well in the first place and no one will ever know anyways" - so because of that thinking they are concerned about parsers being added.
Or maybe its people who believe that they're doing really, really well - and dont want to risk seeing that belief destroyed by facts (you know, kinda like what parsing people have been accused of before: Getting an ego-boost because you're doing well in a videogame - only those people dont actually want to know how they're doing, because it could be some ugly truth waiting for them).
Some might actually be concerned about harrassment, but in regards to that I can only repeat what has been said time and time again: In my personal experience - and apparently the experience of other people aswell - people who show that they're making an effort and are trying their best dont get harrassed. As I mentioned before: personally I cant recall a moment when someone in a random DF-run was harrassed about parser-numbers, so its probably not a likely occurence.

...so yeah, I'm afraid I cant understand the mindset of a person whos worried about others finding out they're bad at the game but doesnt do anything to change that. Sorry, cant wrap my head around that. Not even considering that this is "just" a game and that people might only play it to see the story.
I'd like to see things from their perspective, but I'm afraid I cant since I dont share this mindset of "Oh, its just a dungeon, so nothing really matters!"

[brasteir]

Parsing drg on an Eden last night simply would not do any mechanics. Just dropped the aoes wherever. People had to go out off their way to get puddles 1 ilm behind him.

Hate it, but square insisted on having razor thin enrages so I guess it's necessary.

[Goji1639]

Vidu,

Besides a handful of the trials the leveling content is completely trivial. Believing you're carrying anyone through it is a bit off-base; it's designed to carry the entire team through it basically regardless of skill, by being ridiculously easy. It's not challenging and it's not supposed to be.

Not that I'm saying you should tolerate someone AFKing through an entire dungeon, but being optimal is hardly necessary and the ONLY reason you would need parsers in that content is optimization. Your input on other peoples optimization isn't necessary for that content, so your opinion that you need the means to force it on people is just arrogant. In that content parsers just create unnecessary toxic hostility towards new or struggling players.

Beyond that, I'm really not interested in arguing anecdotes. I've seen plenty of completely pointless fights break out in trivial content over who's out-damaging who. It's dumb and it's not needed. I don't see any reason to call new players out when the run is going fine, and I never will. It's just discouraging how much of this community feels it's "necessary" to single out struggling players in trivial content, for some obtuse sense of making this content more "serious" and less fun than it's supposed to be.

Save the nitpicking at people for content that has enrage timers. The story is scaled so low that a toddler could complete it easily for a reason, so people can just relax and have fun.

[Vidu]

Vidu,

Besides a handful of the trials the leveling content is completely trivial. Believing you're carrying anyone through it is a bit off-base; it's designed to carry the entire team through it basically regardless of skill, by being ridiculously easy. It's not challenging and it's not supposed to be.

Not that I'm saying you should tolerate someone AFKing through an entire dungeon, but being optimal is hardly necessary and the ONLY reason you would need parsers in that content is optimization. Your input on other peoples optimization isn't necessary for that content, so your opinion that you need the means to force it on people is just arrogant. In that content parsers just create unnecessary toxic hostility towards new or struggling players.

Beyond that, I'm really not interested in arguing anecdotes. I've seen plenty of completely pointless fights break out in trivial content over who's out-damaging who. It's dumb and it's not needed. I don't see the reason to call new players out when the run is going fine, and I never will. It's just discouraging how much of this community feels it's "necessary" in trivial content, for some obtuse sense of making this content more "serious" and less fun than it should be for new players.

Yes, content is mostly trivial but that does not mean that you dont need to put in some amount of effort.

Putting in some amount of effort doesnt equal optimisation on the level you're implying. Pressing 1-2-3 in the right order is already optimization compared to only pressing 1-1-1. Using your cooldowns during a fight instead of outside of one is optimization. Keeping your DoTs up is optimization. Using AoE-spells in groups and ST-rotations on single enemies is optimization. People confuse "playing level appropriate" with "purple parsers and day one clears" constantly when it comes to these discussions. A certain amount of "optimization" is completly reasonable, even in trivial leveling dungeons.

Why do you believe that taking this content less serious is more fun to new players? Why do you believe that telling someone "Oh, it actually doesnt matter what you do, just roll your head over your keyboard, thats fine" is more fun to new players than telling them "Hey, there is a better way to play your class which will allow you to contribute in a more meanigful way to our teameffort!" - and while this is only my personal opinion I'd like to add that I feel that most jobs are a lot more fun to play if you actually know what you're doing - each job has some of their best skills locked behind doing something "right" before after all. And by "best skills" I dont only mean that they're the ones with the highest potency but often also the ones with the most flashy animations/sounds aswell as adding a certain "flow" to the whole gameplay. For me its also more fun to press more than one button - that might not be the case for everyone and some people might be totally happy with hitting 1 over and over again, but at least for me playing a job "better" also makes it more fun.

Personally I think its really sad that most content is extremly trivial, specially when that wasnt always the case but we saw both real nerfs (aka adjustments to the content itself) and this powercreep happening. I recall ARR leveling dungeons being actually difficult and a challenge - and I recall Wall-to-Wall pulls being something you didnt do lightly because everyone had to be on their toes or it would have been a wipe. I think if I'd be starting right now, I'd be pretty disappointed by some of the encounters that are being build up by the storytelling as some sort of challenge or something actually dangerous - and then they turn out to be those super trivial fights that are over before you even had a change to try and do the mechanics right because every second on is being skipped. And I'd be even more upset if I'd be "told" that it really doesnt matter what I'm doing, because that implies that it really doesnt matter wether or not I am there, in that fight - and yes, of course it doesnt matter, we all know that missing a dps is never a big deal and that you can finish content without tanks and healers, but thats not what I would want to believe.

Maybe we just have different ideas what "fun" is, but "eh, do whatever, doesnt matter anyways" doesnt sound like fun to me - neither does "you have to play absolutly PERFECT", but thats not what I've been arguing about in the first place. Speaking for myself I can say that contributing in a meanigful way, to the best of my ability and knowledge to any groupcontent is whats most fun to me. Which would be the reason I sometimes might be using a parser: To check wether or not I'm doing that and if I'm not, to correct that. Its also "fun" to do content with likeminded people, so I'm "happy" if that parser shows me that everyone else in that particular run is doing well - if they arent I might be mildly annoyed, rarely speak up and either vote-kick them or at least add them to my blacklist so I'll remember not to play with them again if I have that choice.
If someones "fun" includes not caring about their performance and only looking at the pretty landscapes, thats fine by me - I'll just do everything in my power to avoid them. Sometimes maybe after suggesting that they could try my way of having fun: By looking into a guide or something similar.
I still remember how its like to be completly clueless and at least I'm having way more fun now, with more knowledge and better skills. I'd like to invite everyone to try the same - there might be frustrating moments, sure. But for me those were and are worth it. And if thats not your cup of tea* we can always try and avoid each other - for DF-content that might end up with either you or me getting removed, depending on what the current group thinks is more "fun" right now: Playing your job properly - or just saying "this is trivial, nothing matters".

*Please note that this isnt intended for you personally but is more meant as a general "you" - the two of us wont run into each other anyways, unless you decide to make a character on Light

[Goji1639]

Vidu,

It's great that optimizing in every bit of content is fun for you, but that doesn't mean that anyone else wants an unsolicited lecture in the middle of a story dungeon. There's nothing wrong with offering basic mechanical advice, and then being quiet if it seems the advice isn't wanted or needed, but you don't need a parser for that. A parser only contributes when precise optimization is required; and in trivial content the only notable effect it can have on the group is causing completely meaningless fights.

If you like optimizing then go for it, but don't assume anyone else in your group is looking for that. A lot of people playing the story don't care if they're not "being all they can be," and the story dungeons are designed to accommodate that. So, let it go.

[Alynn]

Vidu,

It's great that optimizing in every bit of content is fun for you, but that doesn't mean that anyone else wants an unsolicited lecture in the middle of a story dungeon. There's nothing wrong with offering basic mechanical advice, and then being quiet if it seems the advice isn't wanted or needed, but you don't need a parser for that. A parser only contributes when precise optimization is required; and in trivial content the only notable effect it can have on the group is causing completely meaningless fights.

If you like optimizing then go for it, but don't assume anyone else in your group is looking for that. A lot of people playing the story don't care if they're not "being all they can be," and the story dungeons are designed to accommodate that. So, let it go.

Optimizing is going into the super fine details... maybe some people like it and that's fine. But what's not fine is not bothering to learn SOME semblance of your dps rotation. I don't want to sit there for an extra 10-15 minutes because someone won't AOE or they're only pressing 1-1-1. In trash pulls its easy to see who is doing what -- you either aoe or you don't. You can see it better on boss fights if someone is pulling their weight or not with the parse. Honestly this is the mindset that stunts people from making improvements. It's not a courtesy for someone to learn what buttons to press. It's an obligation you owe to the other people in the party.

[Goji1639]

Optimizing is going into the super fine details... maybe some people like it and that's fine. But what's not fine is not bothering to learn SOME semblance of your dps rotation. I don't want to sit there for an extra 10-15 minutes because someone won't AOE or they're only pressing 1-1-1. In trash pulls its easy to see who is doing what -- you either aoe or you don't. You can see it better on boss fights if someone is pulling their weight or not with the parse. Honestly this is the mindset that stunts people from making improvements. It's not a courtesy for someone to learn what buttons to press. Its an obligation you owe to the other people in the party.

No, it's not an obligation, it's absolutely a courtesy. Again, these are story dungeons scaled specifically so new players who don't know what they're doing can still progress without issue. It's their content; designed for them. Would it go faster if everyone was in HQ gear pulling perfect rotations? Sure... It's not anyone's responsibility to make it as fast as humanly possible for you, though.

There's content specifically designed for your mindset and content specifically designed for casual play. Story dungeons are casual. If they're not AFK and the content is moving along without wipes, which it always does, then there's no issue.

[Alynn]

No, it's not an obligation, it's absolutely a courtesy. Again, these are story dungeons scaled specifically so new players who don't know what they're doing can still progress without issue. It's their content; designed for them. Would it go faster if everyone was in HQ gear pulling perfect rotations? Sure... It's not anyone's responsibility to make it as fast as humanly possible for you, though.

There's content specifically designed for your mindset and content specifically designed for casual play. Story dungeons are casual. If they're not AFK and the content is moving along without wipes, which it always does, then there's no issue.

Actually no. As long as it's put into duty finder the content "belongs" to anyone who queues up. And that includes the 3 other people in the party who's time is being wasted because someone cba to learn. In fact, if it belongs to that one person then they should just go solo it themselves. They can't because it doesn't work like that lol.

I don't care about going as fast as humanly possible. I care that people are pulling their weight. 30+ minutes for a dungeon is not a respectable amount of time lmao. Again, I'm not asking for you to know a perfect rotation. I'm asking people to know some semblance of what they SHOULD be doing. There's some competent sprouts out there because they open their eyes and try to understand their tooltips. Just open your eyes and read 4head game2hard am I right? If you go all the way up to expert roulette and tell me you're not at the very least AOEing or only spamming goring blade/rage of halone with no req or something of that sort, there's something fundamentally wrong.

If it wasn't an obligation do you really think SE themselves, Champion of the Casuals, would release a book that tells people how to play their class????

[Goji1639]

Actually no. As long as it's put into duty finder the content "belongs" to anyone who queues up. And that includes the 3 other people in the party who's time is being wasted because someone cba to learn. In fact, if it belongs to that one person then they should just go solo it themselves. They can't because it doesn't work like that lol.

I don't care about going as fast as humanly possible. I care that people are pulling their weight. 30+ minutes for a dungeon is not a respectable amount of time lmao. Again, I'm not asking for you to know a perfect rotation. I'm asking people to know some semblance of what they SHOULD be doing. There's some competent sprouts out there because they open their eyes and try to understand their tooltips. Just open your eyes and read 4head game2hard am I right? If you go all the way up to expert roulette and tell me you're not at the very least AOEing or only spamming goring blade/rage of halone with no req or something of that sort, there's something fundamentally wrong.

If it wasn't an obligation do you really think SE would release a book that tells people how to play their class????

Roulettes are optional, and story content is in them specifically so new players won't have ridiculously long queue's. You get rewarded for running them, and get rewarded moreso for running them with new players. That's your incentive to deal with the pitfalls of running casual content with new players. If it's not worth it then again, roulettes are optional.

Also, if it were an obligation then you could report people for not knowing basic stuff. The only obligations are to contribute and make progress.