Quote Originally Posted by JanVanding View Post
Why would I bring up the AST in the conversation?

Because it's what makes the DNC and BRD replaceable.

Bring an AST plus WHM or SCH, then SMN and any combination of dps the BRD and DNC are replaced.
No, it doesn’t. Because even with an Di AST/SCH comp or (heaven forbid) WHM/Noct AST comp, that doesn’t impact the DPS composition. There are 4 DPS slots in a full party: 2 are usually for melee, 1 for a physical ranged, and 1 for a caster. If triple melee+caster or double caster was a viable comp, we’d be seeing it. But are we? No. Those were rare to see even back before 5.1 when the physical ranged role as a whole was technically inferior to double BLM.

You're still benchmarking on Eden Savage when we have Hades EX with its 2 min 30 sec enrage timers, every phase and obviously we're waiting on the data for Alex Ult but the initial results don't look good for BRD and DNC.
I’m benchmarking Savage because EX barely takes any skill anymore. Hades EX is not harder than Titan or Leviathan—the odd-number primals usually fall between the second and third floors. If you want to benchmark a job’s true performance, you look at higher-end content. That’s not EX. It’s barely Savage at this point, but Savage is the best we have right now until TEA results come in.

As for TEA, I literally just said in my previous post that the physical ranged theorycrafters have listed all three physical ranged as being viable options for TEA. BRD pulls ahead of DNC in Living Liquid and Brute Justice+Cruise Chaser because it can double-DoT, but DNC is not a bad choice. Neither is MCH. All world prog groups are carrying any of the three right now. But I’m just assuming you skipped over the part where I mentioned this, since it’s clear you aren’t actually reading what I’m saying.

Now let's see, what class struggles in those kinds of situations since they have a 2 minute timer on their burst windows.... Hmmm

Oh that's right! DNC! Hades EX requires consistent damage every phase consistency being a strong dps base line at all points (why all the first clear results were full of SAMs as they're very consistent)

Not low dps to burst window.
It’s an EX primal. It doesn’t take much to clear those, and they are a poor benchmark to base any job around, really. If you are struggling in Hades EX on DNC, that’s purely a you problem. You’re doing something incredibly wrong with your damage if you find yourself feeling gimped in there.

DNC burst isn’t inconsistent either; I’ve already addressed this. You’re focusing too much on feather RNG and Saber Dance RNG, but Technical Finish windows are designed for you to already have as many resources as possible pre-loaded before your burst (feathers), and Flourish gives you 5 proc’d skills to work with during the window. It’s also very rare you won’t have at least one Saber Dance during a TF window with a full party of 8 granting you Esprit. There’s a bit of fluctuation in terms of total damage, but I think you’re way over-exaggerating it.

I'm honestly past caring if you want to listen or not, 11k dps is low (your figures back that up for heavens sake adps in the 11k range) and you're clearly doubling down despite the evidence you're presenting running counter to your own arguments!
The numbers I quoted are actually higher than your 11,000 you quoted: the lowest DNC came in at was 11,611.28 aDPS in E1S—but I see now that you’re trying to shift the goalposts by quoting “11k range” for aDPS. But you’re still ignoring the key point here: there’s more to DNC than just aDPS: DNC is a support job—you need to look at its rDPS to know what it’s actually giving a raid, and its rDPS contribution is not low. It’s certainly not 11,000 in any Savage fight at a high level. I don’t know how many times I can repeat that until you actually understand it. aDPS is not the important metric here.

My evidence doesn’t counter my arguments. It supports it. You said that DNC only came in at 11,000 DPS (I assumed personal DPS was your argument here). I provided numbers that proved it comes in much higher in aDPS at a high level of play; and even higher when you consider rDPS, which is the metric you want to look at for a job that buffs a party because that is its total contribution to the raid. DNC gives more than just personal damage—it gives buffs. So you have to factor in those as well. You seem to be stubbornly ignoring this, and only caring about the number you see on your parse. There’s much more to it than that.

Our adps needs to go up by 1k to be considered "in a good spot" (does that sound like I want overbuffing? No, I want us to pull our weight not feel like others have to make up for us constantly)
If our aDPS were to increase to ~12,000 at the low tier of a 95th percentile, then the developers will likely nerf our support to compensate for that. If you feel like others are making up for your short-comings, perhaps that is an issue with your personal performance.

And for heavens sake, learn what power budget is and why the DNC and BRD are pretty much in trouble if they don't get some help. They're underbudgeted

You know it

I know it

The forum knows it

Every top raider knows it

Reddit knows it

And I don't doubt the balancing team know it too.
Really? We all know it, do we?

Then why are mentors in the DNC Balance channels telling people that DNC is fine right now? Or that all three physical ranged are viable for TEA? Why are world prog groups rolling with a physical ranged when they could just take double caster for the Raise you keep raving about? Why are top raiders even participating in TEA on DNC?

Perhaps it’s because we’re not nearly as dead as you seem to think? Perhaps because they also enjoy the job; and perhaps, since it’s as viable as the other three physical ranged, it doesn’t matter to then if it has lower personal damage? It was literally said in the DNC Balance channel yesterday when someone asked which physical ranged should they take into TEA: “BRD pulls ahead because it can multi-DoT, but all three are equally viable.”

One of the top rated threads in here is about how poorly rdps (MCH/DNC/BRD) are doing right now.
Are you talking about this thread? Because that thread was made before Patch 5.1—when the physical ranged were actually less valuable to a raid than taking 2 casters and sacrificing the 1% main stat party bonus from bringing a ranged. Patch 5.1 gave us a roughly ~4% increase to our damage. Did you miss those buffs? It may seem small, but it was enough to push us away from technically being worse than double BLM or triple melee+BLM back in 5.0 and 5.05. Even back then, though, it was rare to see a physical ranged excluded from even speedkills. There were only 3 ranked pre-5.1 for E2S and E3S that did triple melee+BLM. All other speedkills had a physical ranged.

If you mean this thread, I don’t see anything in here about the physical ranged being dead weight or unviable. But it’s not exactly a “top rated thread”; the opening post has a grand total of 5 likes.

If you mean another thread, link it please. In fact, why don’t you link all your data? And your sources? Seems like I’m the only one providing any information here. Why not give something concrete to back up your arguments for a change? The only “source” you’ve mentioned (but never really confirmed) is a possible caster main on Twitch talking about physical ranged jobs that he doesn’t even have unlocked or leveled.

To throw it back at ya, I think I'll listen to them, before I listen to you.
The theorycrafters are literally saying the exact same things I’m saying. I’m parroting them at this point. I’ve even been in the Balance asking and re-confirming some of the points that I am making to you here.