Anyone else concerned by the extremely low skill ceiling?

[HyoMinPark]

Ehh, I can agree with you on WAR and DRK, I haven't really played monk myself, but the upkeep GL was never something you really could affect, most of the time it would either fall off because of too long transition or not, having it not fall off is more of a QoL change than anything. Saying that "every job" is overly simplistic is a huge stretch. Compare heavensward ninja, dragoon, black mage and summoner to their current versions, are they really simpler in any significant way? They have received as much new stuff as they have lost, if not more. And that is the heavensward version, the 2.x version of every job was the most simple version of that job hands down, it was a heavensward version minus 5 abilities. EDIT: Oh and paladin has only gotten more busy with the expansions, 3.x paladin was still pretty much 123 job with 1 dot, now it has a magic phase in it's rotation.

DRG lost Heavy Thrust management going from SB into ShB, so they lost something to upkeep. BotD is a joke to upkeep compared to HW, where it was easier to drop it. SB simplified that and reduced punishment if one were to let it drop, since BotD’s cooldown is 30s now compared to 60s, I believe, in HW.

BLM got easier after HW—they made it easier to upkeep Enochian because people complained about how easy it was to drop it. Rotationally, it’s always been easy; but they took the “difficult” part of its HW rotation and made it less punishing.

NIN is a bit unfair since they’re getting a rework to fix gameplay issues. We’ll see how it is then. Same with SMN and it’s new Egi-Assaults, which I don’t think added any real rotational complexity, just annoyance with execution.

MNK’s GL upkeep on Form Shift can be seen as a QoL—but they also don’t have to worry about positionals virtually ever anymore, removing that aspect of complexity from the job.

PLD may have gotten busier with the introduction of Requiescat windows and such, but, as you retorted to me: that’s one job.


I disagree that a significant number of jobs retained complexity since HW. The jobs that were added post-HW were seemingly designed with low rotational complexity in mind (RDM, SAM, DNC)—the only one that seems to be the exception to this is GNB, which is more active (like PLD) compared to DRK and WAR, which are fairly boring in terms of rotation. SB BRD gained complexity in Repertoire management, DoT management, and Foe’s management...but ShB took all of that away to “close the gap between low-tier players and high-tier players”. It received nothing in return for what it lost. I wouldn’t say that MCH is overly complex now either—I never played it much in HW or SB, but things like Ammunition management added something to the job that you had to manage, I felt. I don’t think there’s much to Overheating anymore: it’s basically use Hypercharge at 50 gauge; make sure you have enough for Wildfire every 120s; and press everything else on CD as it comes up.

Saying that “DPS jobs have retained their complexity for the most part” when a significant number have not is a stretch, in my opinion.

[Samsta]

I disagree that a significant number of jobs retained complexity since HW. The jobs that were added post-HW were seemingly designed with low rotational complexity in mind (RDM, SAM, DNC)—the only one that seems to be the exception to this is GNB, which is more active (like PLD) compared to DRK and WAR, which are fairly boring in terms of rotation. SB BRD gained complexity in Repertoire management, DoT management, and Foe’s management...but ShB took all of that away to “close the gap between low-tier players and high-tier players”. It received nothing in return for what it lost. I wouldn’t say that MCH is overly complex now either—I never played it much in HW or SB, but things like Ammunition management added something to the job that you had to manage, I felt. I don’t think there’s much to Overheating anymore: it’s basically use Hypercharge at 50 gauge; make sure you have enough for Wildfire every 120s; and press everything else on CD as it comes up.

Saying that “DPS jobs have retained their complexity for the most part” when a significant number have not is a stretch, in my opinion.

I don't get why you only list things that they lost, when the fact is they actually also gained things. Take blm for example, yeah the Blizzard IV refreshed enochian back then, but as you said that wasn't hard to keep up, and your overall rotation was actually simpler back then, they gained polyglots to use and despair, both which actually make you press more buttons now on your rotation. The only thing I can say is that they raised the skill floor by making it so when you mess up you aren't punished as heavily as before, but that is raising the skill floor, playing the job as it's meant to be played involves more abilities now and the gameplay feels pretty much the same, thus the ceiling hasn't been lowered. Same with many other jobs, dragoon gained life of the dragon etc. I fail to see how losing something but getting something else in it's stead isn't retaining complexity for the most part, only thing they did was they brought the floor up so when you fail you aren't punished that much, but honestly that is irrelevant, you still have to play the job near it's potential to clear harder content, the ceiling of jobs is pretty much the same.

[ForteNightshade]

I don't get why you only list things that they lost, when the fact is they actually also gained things. Take blm for example, yeah the Blizzard IV refreshed enochian back then, but as you said that wasn't hard to keep up, and your overall rotation was actually simpler back then, they gained polyglots to use and despair, both which actually make you press more buttons now on your rotation. The only thing I can say is that they raised the skill floor by making it so when you mess up you aren't punished as heavily as before, but that is raising the skill floor, playing the job as it's meant to be played involves more abilities now and the gameplay feels pretty much the same, thus the ceiling hasn't been lowered. Same with many other jobs, dragoon gained life of the dragon etc. I fail to see how losing something but getting something else in it's stead isn't retaining complexity for the most part, only thing they did was they brought the floor up so when you fail you aren't punished that much, but honestly that is irrelevant, you still have to play the job near it's potential to clear harder content, the ceiling of jobs is pretty much the same.

You actually don't, especially not on Black Mage. An average Black Mage will boast higher damage than any other job outside the melee. Regardless, simply gaining a new ability or gauge does not inherently make the job equally complex.

Since you mention Dragoon, I'll use it for such an example. In Heavensward, management of BotD was far tighter and more punishing. You needed to know when to maximize your gauge because Geirskogul drained BotD, thus you could unintentionally ruin your own buff through mismanagement. The Eye system is significantly more straight forward as you simply used your Jumps and activated it through Geirskogul, which no longer drained your gauge. This was simplified even further in Shadowbringers where now only Jump/Hi-Jump grant an Eye, Nastrond guarantees a full 30 second duration; increased from 20 previously. You also had maintenance management in Phleebotomize and Heavy Thrust—both of which were removed in the subsequent expansions they were introduced.

Put simply, the newer systems designed for Dragoon were easier than Heavensward. That isn't to say they were necessarily bad but the job has, indeed, been simplified, especially going from Stormblood to Shadowbringers.

Really? I couldn't get any clears on either of those two with less than half of those deaths, decent gear, and in normal mode. I don't do savage, but in both SB alliance raids and ex trials, if there were too many DPS players down during the timer, chat logs would get filled with one word: "Reset". I couldn't even imagine a savage clear ever happening under the same circumstances where bosses have enrages between phases. Is it fair to say you might be exaggerating, maybe just a little bit?

She is not. My static cleared Innocence EX with 11 deaths while in a hodgepodge of i430-i440 gear. Back in Deltascape, Alte Roite was cleared in a single pull by the WF team. I know several groups that had 10+ deaths and still beat his enrage. These fights are simply that undertuned. What you're experience is players with no concept of improvement or optimization attempting content that isn't entirely brain dead, and their inexperience/lack of skill being put on display. This isn't necessarily their fault either. The game gave them no intention whatsoever they would actually have to pay attention because everything prior barely tickles—which is part of the problem.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

You actually don't, especially not on Black Mage. An average Black Mage will boast higher damage than any other job outside the melee. Regardless, simply gaining a new ability or gauge does not inherently make the job equally complex.

Since you mention Dragoon, I'll use it for such an example. In Heavensward, management of BotD was far tighter and more punishing. You needed to know when to maximize your gauge because Geirskogul drained BotD, thus you could unintentionally ruin your own buff through mismanagement. The Eye system is significantly more straight forward as you simply used your Jumps and activated it through Geirskogul, which no longer drained your gauge. This was simplified even further in Shadowbringers where now only Jump/Hi-Jump grant an Eye, Nastrond guarantees a full 30 second duration; increased from 20 previously. You also had maintenance management in Phleebotomize and Heavy Thrust—both of which were removed in the subsequent expansions they were introduced.

Put simply, the newer systems designed for Dragoon were easier than Heavensward. That isn't to say they were necessarily bad but the job has, indeed, been simplified, especially going from Stormblood to Shadowbringers.

Heavensward was basically the epitomy of punishment for jobs though. For example, A1S. Boss random turns for mechanics. Back then, drg did not get heavy thrust buff if you didn't meet the positional. This was incredibly punishing. I don't think you even got the activation of impulse drives combo if you missed the positional. It was awful. This wasn't complex, this was terrible class design.

[ForteNightshade]

Heavensward was basically the epitomy of punishment for jobs though. For example, A1S. Boss random turns for mechanics. Back then, drg did not get heavy thrust buff if you didn't meet the positional. This was incredibly punishing. I don't think you even got the activation of impulse drives combo if you missed the positional. It was awful. This wasn't complex, this was terrible class design.

Those are two different arguments though. Making it so Heavy Thrust's buff applies even if you miss the positional is QoL. Changing the entirety of Dragoon's job system to a more streamlined version is simplifying it.

[Melichoir]

Those are two different arguments though. Making it so Heavy Thrust's buff applies even if you miss the positional is QoL. Changing the entirety of Dragoon's job system to a more streamlined version is simplifying it.

I dont think its totally off base though and touches on a point: There are some views that everything in HW was harder, therefore better, without the context of why things were harder.
As an example, Lets say...

...a savage boss has a tank buster that has a debuff applied to it. You gotta use your 30% CD for it to barely survive it because it does 95% max hp after mitigation. If you die from the buster or die from the immediate unavoidable Auto attack that hits for 60% of your max HP, the debuff explodes doing fatal raid damage. Boss cant be taunted until after his first auto attack following this buster and taunting any time fore causes the taunt to miss, the attack hits through shields, and invulns do not work. This occurs every 1 minute 30. Furthermore, that unavoidable auto attack refreshes the debuff which takes a minute 20 to fall off, so a tank swap is then mandatory. Getting hit by another auto will be fatal. Lastly, the boss does a standard tank buster forcing a double CD for current tank. You gotta tank swap back to the original tank before the mechanic repeats or itll be fatal.

All the while, everyone else is being hit by heavy ticking dots, stack mechanics, blind mechanics, parts of the arena moving or disappearing. The enrage timer is so tight that if you do not have a perfect rotation and skill use, you will die. If anyone dies to any mechanic outside of the aforementioned tank buster, the entire raid takes 90% max hp damage. Lucid Dream must be used on CD, and any misspent heals could potentially be a wipe. Any over healing that occurs heals the boss.

But it can be done...if you and your static play near perfectly. This is also S2 of the tier, and every fight beyond here gets more broken.



This would be a hellish fight to play, extremely unforgiving, and push people to their limits and most likely break up virtually every static. Yet there are people who would say "Yes, this is how it should be." However, most people would look at this fight as being disgustingly broken and unplayable. While Im being hyperbolic in the example, the point is that some people are remembering poorly designed encounters or class mechanics as being better than they were.

[Crushnight]

I dont think its totally off base though and touches on a point: There are some views that everything in HW was harder, therefore better, without the context of why things were harder.
As an example, Lets say...

...a savage boss has a tank buster that has a debuff applied to it. You gotta use your 30% CD for it to barely survive it because it does 95% max hp after mitigation. If you die from the buster or die from the immediate unavoidable Auto attack that hits for 60% of your max HP, the debuff explodes doing fatal raid damage. Boss cant be taunted until after his first auto attack following this buster and taunting any time fore causes the taunt to miss, the attack hits through shields, and invulns do not work. This occurs every 1 minute 30. Furthermore, that unavoidable auto attack refreshes the debuff which takes a minute 20 to fall off, so a tank swap is then mandatory. Getting hit by another auto will be fatal. Lastly, the boss does a standard tank buster forcing a double CD for current tank. You gotta tank swap back to the original tank before the mechanic repeats or itll be fatal.

All the while, everyone else is being hit by heavy ticking dots, stack mechanics, blind mechanics, parts of the arena moving or disappearing. The enrage timer is so tight that if you do not have a perfect rotation and skill use, you will die. If anyone dies to any mechanic outside of the aforementioned tank buster, the entire raid takes 90% max hp damage. Lucid Dream must be used on CD, and any misspent heals could potentially be a wipe. Any over healing that occurs heals the boss.

But it can be done...if you and your static play near perfectly. This is also S2 of the tier, and every fight beyond here gets more broken.



This would be a hellish fight to play, extremely unforgiving, and push people to their limits and most likely break up virtually every static. Yet there are people who would say "Yes, this is how it should be." However, most people would look at this fight as being disgustingly broken and unplayable. While Im being hyperbolic in the example, the point is that some people are remembering poorly designed encounters or class mechanics as being better than they were.

Didn't even need to go to hyperbolic could just use Nisi + Royal Penticule as an example, the intended way was absolutely horrible so much so the community decided sack strat is preferable by far yet people wanted people's clears taken away because it wasn't the "intended way" to deal with it, sometimes there is a limit to what people will put up with and A4S when it was current content was one of them.

[Payotz]

I wouldn’t say that MCH is overly complex now either—I never played it much in HW or SB, but things like Ammunition management added something to the job that you had to manage, I felt. I don’t think there’s much to Overheating anymore: it’s basically use Hypercharge at 50 gauge; make sure you have enough for Wildfire every 120s; and press everything else on CD as it comes up.

It actually got a lot more thinking involved now compared to the SB version. SB version is just pure muscle memory so once you learn a wildfire and a midfire, there's really no optimization whatsoever.

ShB, on the other hand, has a tiny bit of optmization due to how Battery gauge works, like if you summon queen too early, a punch might land in raid buffs rather than a piledriver.

There's also stuff like banking ricochet for add phases and for things like front healer gaol, and I guess Queen AI during uplifts cause pet AI sucks in this game.