Anyone else concerned by the extremely low skill ceiling?

[Videra]

Bard is casting "Hello".

3.0 Bard was the best iteration of Bard, you know it to be true.

[HyoMinPark]

The fact that they were over-tuned or bugged isn't really of consequence for what I was trying to point out. The time investment to clear in this game is fairly minimal while also not discounting other outside factors (IE: Midas was the tier before CD resets upon wipe. It cannot be overstated just how much that cut down on progression time). To say this tier is this much easier because it was killed faster, since you took the liberty of posting Eden's clear time, or because the jobs became less convoluted seems insincere as all previous tiers of Creator were bloated by CD timers waiting to be ticked off.

Then, perhaps be a bit more clear on what you were trying to say rather than being vague? How am I supposed to correctly infer your statement when you basically say nothing?

While cooldown reset was a god-send and did cut back on clear time, I highly doubt that shaved off a week plus worth’s of progression time (if we were to just compare Midas and Creator). It may be big, but I don’t think it was that big. To insinuate such is being insincere, as you are accusing me of being by simply stating that Savage has gotten easier.

Conversely, I don’t consider my argument insincere, since it’s fairly well known that the difficulty of Savage has decreased since Creator’s release: I believe the developers even said that Creator would be easier than Midas in terms of difficulty when discussing the tier. Additionally, they said that Deltascape would be the same difficulty as Creator—but it was far easier (World First for O1S was cleared in the first pull; I don’t think Refurbisher had that kind of honor). Sigmascape was stated to be the same difficulty as Deltascape, and it was cleared in a similar time. Only Alphascape showed any real increase in difficulty, but I still found it fairly easy. I think, at most, it was around Creator difficulty.

As for Eden’s Gate, the developers admitted that, while the second floor has a higher required DPS check compared to previous second floors (I believe the jump between E1S and E2S DPS check is 10,000 rDPS there about?), the HP of bosses were reduced 15% instead of the standard 10%. So they were made to have significantly less HP. Mechanically, I found the third floor lacking compared to previous third-tier floors (Hali, Guardian, Omega); and I am not entirely alone in this opinion. Leviathan has two major mechanics (Tsunami 1 and Tsunami 2), but they aren’t anything spectacularly difficult.

I also don’t think that jobs being “convoluted” had much of an impact. They’ve been simplified with Shadowbringers, sure. But I don’t think that the changes in playstyle or complexity affected the clear time of Eden as significantly as you seem to want to imply.

Also, a correction to your all of 4.0 raids took 18 hours: I have to point out that O12S did take 41 hours to clear while A12S took 50 hours. If the clear time in savage, or that it seems easier by a select bunch of individuals that are, indeed, a niche, is simply unacceptable, it begs me to question why ultimates were created if the difficulty change to savage is still being pushed. It comes off as a blatant case of trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Is there something wrong with some raiders asking that Savage content be a bit more difficult simply because Ultimate exists? Or is it just something that you personally dislike? Because I’m getting the impression of the latter being the case here, if I’m to be quite honest with you.

Personally, I don’t see a problem in asking for Savage to feel, I don’t know, more “savage”? I’d like for floors to take me a bit more time as opposed to a lockout to clear a fight (E1S actually took my static an hour to clear on Day 1—I wish it had actually taken longer). But this is my opinion.

As far as PotD being sold, to say it's taken this long, if that is a new offer, is quite surprising as ultimates have been on sale for quite some time if party finder is any indication. Again, it just strikes me as you're being really insincere with certain things to simply push a narrative.

I don’t know how long selling solo PotD 200/HoH 100 runs has been a thing; it’s not something I really keep up with. But I do think it’s disingenuous to really compare Deep Dungeon content to Savage/Ultimate content when it comes to clear time.

PotD and HoH can revolve very heavily around luck and RNG when it comes to the higher floors, and you only really have yourself to rely on. By nature, they’re fairly unpredictable. Savage and Ultimate, on the other hand, don’t involve any luck and are a collaborative, scripted effort. I don’t think either are particularly harder or easier compared to one another—I just think they are two separate beasts that shouldn’t be compared as if they are the same. That’s a disingenuous assessment, in my opinion.

That said, my premise was about Savage and its current state; and how I feel as if it is a shadow of what it used to be. Not PotD or HoH. I was not the one who attempted to compare them to another piece of content that’s not remotely similar in nature or execution.

My point here was what is in an accomplishment when things are cleared quickly by the overachievers? The difficulty has been first figuring out the fights, not actually doing them since you can pre-plan everything before stepping into an encounter if you know what's coming up because someone else has actually done the hard work (and yes, I understand there is still a difference between knowing and execution). Also, to point out, I've never seen a group of random people die 13 times and still clear Innocence or Titania. I could certainly see that with a bunch of high-end raiders that do things together and still learning the fight, or even a couple of high-end players with some randoms, still clearing. I think, when comparing the entirety of the game and problems going on at large, people tend toward something out of proportion to what is more likely to occur to exacerbate their point.

EDIT: If people are really wanting a challenge, FFLogs Challenge is a thing.

My opinions have always been voiced from someone who is fairly midcore when it comes to raiding (Maybe semi-hardcore? Since I like optimizing my jobs, but even that’s a stretch, I think...). I am not a world-first caliber raider; but, I still find that the tiers feel progressively easier, and I feel as if I don’t get as much accomplishment out of clearing some of the floors simply because they feel too easy. I’m sure the rebuttal to this will be “Well, maybe they feel easier because of your own growing skill”, but I raided this tier on a job that I hadn’t been playing for 3 years (and am still trying to optimize), and I still found it more simple than previous tiers (which, as stated by the developers, it was made easier).

If you would like to lump me in with “overachievers”, be my guest: I would just simply like to see tiers last longer for the world-firsters—because that means they will also last longer for those of us who are not as skilled (including myself).

Clearing 3 out of 4 of the fights this tier Week 1 and the fourth fight Week 2 was exhilarating and exciting for me; but I would not be opposed to it simply taking me longer to clear (with the added time needed being a direct result of the fights simply being harder—not Ultimate-caliber hard, but harder than they currently are). If I were to clear them early, I think that if they felt harder to me, clearing them early would feel like an even greater accomplishment.

I am speaking more so about myself personally when it comes to accomplishment—I removed the statement you initially quoted simply because it was poor wording on my part, and I figured it would likely start a debate much like this one. I felt it better to just take it out, but I clearly didn’t edit fast enough. Again, if you would like to label me an overachiever, then be my guest.


I don’t really have to argue much about tiers becoming easier when the developers come out and directly say that they made them easier. Posting clear times or not, I feel that this is undebatable and a fairly straight-forward assessment.

3.0 Bard was the best iteration of Bard, you know it to be true.

While I am one of two people alive that actually liked bowmage, HW BRD was a busted mess towards the end of the expansion. Balance-wise, it (and MCH) were awful (they could out-damage MNK and BLM). 4.x BRD could have used some adjustments to prevent its powercreep, but I think it was the best iteration of the job, personally.


I think HW DRK was good. Better than 4.x or 5.0 DRK. And I kind of liked HW WAR, even though I didn’t play it at a high level: building up Wrath stacks for Fell Cleave was fun.

[Ghald]

I don't do savage raid so I don't know the complexity of having to ballancing all the jobs but what I can say is that many of the jobs are becoming uniformed especially the tank role at least since that's the jobs I'm leveling. So far, PLD/WAR/DRK play more or less the same while GNB feel a little more busy which is good.
I actually fell asleep briefly while grinding for irregular timestone in Praetorium as a SCH, so lucky I wasn't kick off the party, spaming 1 attack button and keep one DoT up was so mind numbingly boring.

[Shinklet]

The people who play this game in general want it to be easy, grind-free, one shottable.

There's a post in this very section asking for hunt immunity for christ's sake. People keep forgetting that MMORPGS used to be one of the most demanding, time consuming, most-research required genres in gaming and not dress up doll simulators.

uwu look at my qute scween shot

[Kleeya]

So, it means that this time, for the world first ultimate, people are not gonna use things like packets inspection, data mining, automatic call outs of mechanics to come, unauthorized add-ons, etc, to make things way easier than it would normally be ? XD

Irony aside when even the most so-called hardcore players are using all they can to dumb things down, i dont see what's weird when SE end up giving them what they want.

[Adeacia]

So, it means that this time, for the world first ultimate, people are not gonna use things like packets inspection, data mining, automatic call outs of mechanics to come, unauthorized add-ons, etc, to make things way easier than it would normally be ? XD

Irony aside when even the most so-called hardcore players are using all they can to dumb things down, i dont see what's weird when SE end up giving them what they want.

I always find this fact funny. They complain that things aren't hard enough, as they do everything in their power to make it as easy as possible. I have a challenge for them. When any new savage or ultimate comes out, you must clear it with no parser, no voice chat, in first person view with the HUD turned off. Whole party must do this.

Stop trying to make it easy and make it hard.

[Fynlar]

It seems to me that the difference between a poor to average skilled player compared to a skilled player is minuscule performance wise.

Not sure where you get that impression from tbh

[JunseiKei]

[snip]

You mentioned nothing cleared after week 2 this tier is worth its salt. I said other than two instances, nothing has taken any length to complete. It's not vague. It just wasn't spelled out plainly because I didn't think it needed to be spelled out. My apologies.

Yes, it's insincere to say all of 4.0 raids took 18 hours as the way it was phrased.

Midas took 17 days. Apparently, there was a bug in that tier, too, and that held things up. If Midas had CD resets, the time would probably be much lower than what's recorded. However, that's all speculation from both sides.

I never said it was insincere to say savage has gotten easier. I said it was insincere how it's being presented. The above hours for 4.0 raids to clear is a nice example of how it's being presented is misleading.

I also don't get comparing fight difficulty using the best-of-the-best players as the standard of difficulty for everyone else to be around to progress gear. Difficulty is highly subjective, as is fun. Saying Deltascape would be the same difficulty as Creator, but was then far easier is subjective. From viewing from my old static that did both fights, yeah, I'd say that checks out; Deltascape felt about the same difficulty as Creator coming from a decidedly midcore static. Again, that's insincere as if it's easier, then it'd be easier across everyone that experienced these fights at the time they were current content. If not insincere, it's applying a narrow viewpoint for the entirety of the community with little to no regard to others nor for whom the content is made for (IE: ultimates being made for the high end raider, therefore it is tuned for the high-end raider).

Nothing wrong with asking for more challenging content. What I am saying is it need not apply to simply savage. Ad hominem aside, it comes down for whom the content is made for. Considering SE keeps making savage "easier" (since that's subjective), it appears that savage is not made for the high-end raider only.

The comparison of PotD to savage and ultimate is the amount of time it took to clear and the, I guess, dedication(?) it took to actually get it done. There's far more risk involved in solo deep dungeon, and yes, as you pointed out, RNG. In my book, that makes actually getting the clear even more of an achievement than following a script. If people simply want a challenge, prestige or accomplishment, well, you've got one right here.

Again, I don't care if people want harder content - I'd like it too. Jeeze, why do you think I dislike people asking for things when it's a genuinely fair thing to ask for? Is it because I'm simply on the opposite viewpoint? Well, just because two people disagree on something doesn't mean that person hates it, only that they disagree with the proposal. However, where it's being asked is what I have a problem with. Nor have I forgotten how Second Coil Savage went as a purely boasting rights, prestige and accomplishment (it was virtually ignored) because nothing but a title was attached to it. It took offering a title and a shiny weapon with an extra materia slot, making it BiS, to entice people. That's something that's always going to remain a stigma in my mind. [Tangent/opinion: People don't want challenge, they want something to show off to others as an accomplishment, but that's my cynical side talking.]

Again, I never said tiers haven't gotten easier. That would be a strawman. My stances have been no content, even designed for the high-end raiders, have lasted for any substantial time. For that reason, I don't see the reason to lock gear progression for the entirety of the game behind even harder content that will ultimately be locked to a very niche group until months later. [Opinion: For expansion, this is especially bad as this would be no content from the end of MSQ until about 4 months.] Gear progression should be achievable for as many players as possible within a target demographic. If the high-end raiders want harder stuff, sure, let them ask for it and I hope they get it. Gear does eventually progress for the lowest-end player, those that cannot clear savage due to skill, disability or simply time constraints, via hunts and 24-man, but otherwise you'll be locking out the midcore players [for 4 months, I might add, if going off of expansion from the above opinion].

It's not about labeling people or not. It's about accessibility and not being exclusive for the sake of pride, which is how much of these complaints about being easy come off. I'm not one for simplification until nothing is left, but I'm definitely not for locking out people who are middling in skill level either. Compromises need to be made and I think savage is fine as a place for that compromise, especially with ultimate being content they are including to fill a difficulty that would be otherwise missing.

Irony aside when even the most so-called hardcore players are using all they can to dumb things down, i dont see what's weird when SE end up giving them what they want.

*Sigh.* I can't disagree with you, though I don't think all of the hardcore players are complaining that savage is too easy while also using tools. I don't even think it's a majority, but it's certainly a vague number of people. Using third party programs for triggers, bots in chat services that tell you exactly how to handle mechanics, even alerts for when skills come off of CDs, I find it at odds with the requests to make things harder.

[Gemina]

Even the state of Extreme primals is laughable now: 13 deaths and still clearing before enrage for Innocence or Titania in minimum item level gear is kind of silly, to be honest. I miss the days of Sephirot EX... (even though Sophia EX is still my fav EX to date, and she was relatively easy).

Really? I couldn't get any clears on either of those two with less than half of those deaths, decent gear, and in normal mode. I don't do savage, but in both SB alliance raids and ex trials, if there were too many DPS players down during the timer, chat logs would get filled with one word: "Reset". I couldn't even imagine a savage clear ever happening under the same circumstances where bosses have enrages between phases. Is it fair to say you might be exaggerating, maybe just a little bit?

If this thread applies to only savage clears, and a concern that they are becoming too easy, then I will humbly say that I don't have much place to contribute to the thread. However, I will agree that players who seek to be pushed should continue to have content that pushes them. If it applies to casual content though, I'll take those skill ceilings, chew 'em up, and spit them right back out.

There seems to be this notion that most content being able to be cleared despite multiple missteps and derps makes it too easy. Many also feel it is a growing trend when this isn't anything new to ShB. If anything, I would think most would be content (and perhaps most are) that optimization in casual content translates to faster clears. Trust me on this, requiring more optimization and tossing out more Mist Dragon and Cid type bosses will lead to more frustration - not less, from all ranges of skill types in the playerbase.

Don't get me wrong though. I believe the game needs more bosses like those in casual content, and I will never be ok with how great we overgear content as an expansion progresses. To standardize it though would unquestionably kill the game. I believe for the sake of longevity, encounter design will have to eventually change and adapt to today's standards. But casual content very much needs to stay casual. This does not equal catering to the lowest common denominator, as many would have us believe.

[Nedkel]

Titan Savage is not what i would call a low skill ceiling.
Latest alliance raid is also pretty hard and people are trying to avoid it.