Anyone else concerned by the extremely low skill ceiling?

[Enjuden]

You wanna back this up by something? The amount of skills is roughly the same, some skills like 1 button dots were removed but it's not like the dps rotations differ that much from heavensward, if anything they feel better now because of aforementioned reason.

Sure. Unlike now, Heavensward had no way of keeping anything melee wise, and there was no way to get it back except the hard way (except for nin, who only got even more complex since then).

When you needed to get out or drop uptime, you were screwed. Dragoon did not have the QoL of always being in range for Geirskogul, meaning it would actually miss the target and cast anyway if you attempted it at the full range. Jumps had far more animation lag than now as well, and no ranged attacks that you would ever want to be caught dead using. You also had to manage your time with Blood of the Dragon since you spent and earned time instead of always earning time. Monk has no Six Sided Star or Anatman in a time where there were tons of jumps from bosses, and mechanics that forced melee out of a fight.

Bard was a bowmage that nobody wanted to play but when played right, had a lot of damage to it. Lost all of its mobility for the sake of trying something different because every ranged class needed to be a mage. Machinist was easily the most complicated DPS job back then, and is still far more complex due to strict timing of GCD/oGCD timing, and if you screwed up your dps went into the toilet, with no way to ever recover from one mistake on Wildfire. By the way, there were procs for both and MCH relied entirely on procs to actually have dps

Your argument only holds up with Summoner, Ninja (which is getting reworked) and Black Mage, with Black Mage having to revert to 2.x rotations for various reasons. I didn't keep up with it enough to confirm it actually even used 3.x abilities.

Your move.

[Payotz]

Now all the tanks feel the same with the exception of GNB, and even that isn't as complex as 4.x DRK.

God I miss 4.X DRK. TBN felt so much better. Now it's just a "Edge of Darkness, but mitigation!"
People felt that the DA spam was too much but it was amazing busy work to balance DA usage and TBN mana costs with Blood gauge gain.

[monk-dps]

I'd agree on a whole if people didn't wipe on simple dungeons, if the first trial in shadows wasn't a wall for a good chunk of players. If people didn't cheese the item level so they DON'T get the best raids in the game. - numbers/viera raids- Yes it's true the savage raids were tuned down abit after the over tuning that killed the raid scene, but looking back in the history of this game I'd say we're at a good spot. Again I dunno if it's getting THAT easier since people still die, wipe, and get walled now.

[SerLuke]

I do kinda wonder if this is a self inflicted wound by the community after going on the forums/Reddit and hearing how the vast majority of the player base sucked(hyperbole of course but still what was said), didn’t use their whole kit, how much they “enjoy kicking bads” the devs saw what was being said and took it to heart and decided to make “the bads” less bad.

Maybe we should all take this as a listen to cut down on the hyperbole?

[SaitoHikari]

Low skill ceiling? This is the first patch of the expansion. The devs outright admitted that they cut savage boss HP by 15% for this first tier instead of the usual 10% in prior expansions to see how the playerbase handles the job changes/new boss mechanics (and it might be a good thing that they did because E2S is considered the major wall this expansion). I'd wait a bit until 5.1/5.2 before passing judgment.

Either way, raising the ceiling up won't kill the game either. The community survived Ozma and Nidhogg. The community survived Shinryu, Hashmal, Tsukiyomi, and Thunder God Cid. All of those were considered hard by normal community standards back in the day, and yet the community was able to adapt to them. To think otherwise is a bit telling about how little we trust other people on this side of the ocean.

[Nedkel]

Low skill ceiling? This is the first patch of the expansion. The devs outright admitted that they cut savage boss HP by 15% for this first tier instead of the usual 10% in prior expansions to see how the playerbase handles the job changes/new boss mechanics (and it might be a good thing that they did because E2S is considered the major wall this expansion). I'd wait a bit until 5.1/5.2 before passing judgment.

Either way, raising the ceiling up won't kill the game either. The community survived Ozma and Nidhogg. The community survived Shinryu, Hashmal, Tsukiyomi, and Thunder God Cid. All of those were considered hard by normal community standards back in the day, and yet the community was able to adapt to them. To think otherwise is a bit telling about how little we trust other people on this side of the ocean.

I might be wrong, but my guess they had to cut it, because tanks contribution to the overall DPS has fallen by 10-14%.

[monk-dps]

Low skill ceiling? This is the first patch of the expansion. The devs outright admitted that they cut savage boss HP by 15% for this first tier instead of the usual 10% in prior expansions to see how the playerbase handles the job changes/new boss mechanics (and it might be a good thing that they did because E2S is considered the major wall this expansion). I'd wait a bit until 5.1/5.2 before passing judgment.

Either way, raising the ceiling up won't kill the game either. The community survived Ozma and Nidhogg. The community survived Shinryu, Hashmal, Tsukiyomi, and Thunder God Cid. All of those were considered hard by normal community standards back in the day, and yet the community was able to adapt to them. To think otherwise is a bit telling about how little we trust other people on this side of the ocean.

I want to debate some of those sense a good chunk of the playerbase cheeses the que for some of those to not fight them. My debate? That people didn't get used to them and just does everything within their power to not deal with those bosses.

[SerLuke]

I might be wrong, but my guess they had to cut it, because tanks contribution to the overall DPS has fallen by 10-14%.

I don’t run a parser(PS4 player) but are you sure about this? I remeber logging in the moment 5.0 hit and going to a striking dummy and going more Holy Spirits/Royal Authories over 10k than I ever did before antedoctial for sure but meh

[MariaArvana]

I don’t run a parser(PS4 player) but are you sure about this? I remeber logging in the moment 5.0 hit and going to a striking dummy and going more Holy Spirits/Royal Authories over 10k than I ever did before antedoctial for sure but meh

Yes, tank dps (proportionally) has fallen by about 10-15%. The tank mastery trait changes how STR/Attack power scales for tanks, making each point of STR worth less per point than other jobs. The only reason you didn't notice it at the beginning of the expansion is due to the fact they slapped roughly an extra 500 STR onto your accessories. (each accessory was around 51 STR pre-expansion (without str meld), each of the i400 accessories now has 171).

If tank mastery wasn't affecting damage output, all the tanks would be doing an extra 1-2k dps than they are now given their current STR value at 470. Its a super oversimplification of it, but think of tank mastery as giving you both the defense buff and damage penalty of old tank stance, only its constantly on, which doesn't surprise me much that they reduced the max HP of the first raid tier's bosses by 15%, since they were probably seeing how tank & healer dps would play out given the overhauls they did to both.

[DinahDemiurge]

All I want, honestly, is to be able to perform in a way that when other players see me they can easily come to the opinion that "Hey, that player is really good." As it stands, I think it is difficult to do that because the performance of an average and skilled player is very similar(from a strict gameplay perspective not encounter mechanics etc.). I think that the gap between the average player and a skilled player is very narrow and I wish the job gameplay design allowed more reward for those who pursue mastery.