Anyone else concerned by the extremely low skill ceiling?

[CookiesNCreams]

The few elitists will always think their opinion matters more than the majority of casuals. So few actually have savage and ultimate clears only proves the point. The thing that baffles me is PvP not many enjoy it but SE keeps forcing people into it by adding rewards to it constantly.

That’s quite a pretentious mindset you got there. You mean to tell me that hardcore player’s opinions are instantly invalid just because you don’t like them? Even though they also pay for the game? Both casual and hardcore players should receive benefits, not one over the other. Please take your obvious disdain towards hardcore players out of this, and be objective.

[Avidria]

The few elitists will always think their opinion matters more than the majority of casuals. So few actually have savage and ultimate clears only proves the point. The thing that baffles me is PvP not many enjoy it but SE keeps forcing people into it by adding rewards to it constantly.

Adding incentives to pvp =/= forcing people into it. I mean, are they supposed to just not offer rewards for the people who enjoy pvp just because not everyone does? What kind of logic is that?

3.0 Bard was the best iteration of Bard, you know it to be true.

Ooo I do not agree with that at all. The whole bowmage thing was just... jarring, after 50+ levels without it. I was not at all sad to see that go.

[MPNZ]

Gating a lot of content behind skill is exactly what caused so many MMOs to go poof. FF is and has always been casual friendly and this is where most of their revenue comes from. Changing that philosophy would be a sure way to kill the game.

That's the skill floor. The skill ceiling is how high a player can push a job or certain aspect of it (mastery). Having a low skill floor means the the gateway skill level to entry decent/passable performance is easy and accessable

[FFgame]

Gating a lot of content behind skill is exactly what caused so many MMOs to go poof.

Which mmos would those be?

[Sloprano]

I am just thinking back to 2.x and 3.x (and to an extent 4.x) content and I am worried about this trend...not only about the design of the extreme/savage encounters but more-so the job player skill ceilings. It seems to me that the difference between a poor to average skilled player compared to a skilled player is minuscule performance wise. There is no real incentive to actually master your job, since you can be really bad and still do 99% of content. Is this the design style going forward? If so, is anyone else concerned? Higher end content should require near-mastery of your job, shouldn't it? Or am I crazy?

While I'm less concerned about skill floors, ceilings, basements and chandeliers, Extreme or Sensible, Savage or Civilized, Ultimate or Introductionary, I'm all about of finding joy in the base of the a class then going into different situations with it , but for SCH I'm worried like a fussy mother waiting on her child to get home late at night, worried they are hanging with bad crowds that go for cheap thrills daring each other to see how many Broil III each can cast before falling asleep, neglecting and forgetting the ardous hours of training piano lessons to play classics like Cleric Stance pedal, Bio 2, ED, Miasma cast, Bio 2 into Bane, hold Shadowflare 3s to cast, run to the other piano and play Miasma 2, before going back and playing Aero on each scale. Ruin is there, but it's one small key you only use to keep the beat while waiting on the tones to fall off. While this is going on you have a keytar with notes on each side to play the songs of Eos and Selene you play while holding a key. And at any moment drop the pedal to play the healing songs of Adlo, Lustrate, Succor and Physick and the Symphony of Support, composed by Arcanist. All the while different parts of the floor is on fire. When they finally come home turns out they've learned to play a lot more on the Healing keys, but have forgotten everything else. Had to train hard to re-remember Miasma 2, before forgetting that and Energy Drain all over again and instead of doing them in succession it turned into a off-note chord.

3 expansions and 4 years worth of major patches and the SE's seemed to have strained themselves adding 20 potency to Broil and haphazardly removing other spells each time. I'm all for something that is easy to pick up and play, difficult to master, but now it's easy to pick up and you mastered it because they're all the same for 80 levels. Isn't the entire point of having all jobs on one character so they could make each and every one of them stand out on their fantastical own feet like peacocks in mating season. Each one in unique brilliant colors and come-hither-looks and screeches, but also sufficiently different: One of them might like pasta like I do, but is more fan of contemporary industry-folk music while I'm into electro swing, it'd never work out. Other likes pasta and jazz, but insists on bringing their pet if we move in together. We have something in common, but can also learn to live with our differences and might even go on to apriciate them. Making each and everyone act the same but only with a single characteristic trait stapled to their forehead (likes stars, has fairy, enjoys nature) is going out of your way to appease everyone, but then blandness sets in and there is nothing else to learn or apriciate about them since after introducing they just sit in the sofa and never show emotion.

If they'd tell us why sandblasting all personality of the Scholar's skillset was necessary to make the job work was because they have no clue, the Yakuza came with threats or to appease Ngg-Y-Tyotith of the Coffied Cup I could've maybe come to understand, at least get closure, but they never do and interest in the game I fell oh so in love with is starting to vain in accordance with how little they seem to care to explain. After doing the story bits and doing stuff with friends, it just drops. Combat is just a small part of the game at this point, but it's still pivotal, in the center and what we are required to participate in all the time to unlcok new stuff. Why Scholar and it's brother's in alms is barely a footnote any more is something I have to stop scracthing my head for in fear of reaching bone.

[JunseiKei]

[snip]

The fact that they were over-tuned or bugged isn't really of consequence for what I was trying to point out. The time investment to clear in this game is fairly minimal while also not discounting other outside factors (IE: Midas was the tier before CD resets upon wipe. It cannot be overstated just how much that cut down on progression time). To say this tier is this much easier because it was killed faster, since you took the liberty of posting Eden's clear time, or because the jobs became less convoluted seems insincere as all previous tiers of Creator were bloated by CD timers waiting to be ticked off.

Also, a correction to your all of 4.0 raids took 18 hours: I have to point out that O12S did take 41 hours to clear while A12S took 50 hours. If the clear time in savage, or that it seems easier by a select bunch of individuals that are, indeed, a niche, is simply unacceptable, it begs me to question why ultimates were created if the difficulty change to savage is still being pushed. It comes off as a blatant case of trying to have your cake and eat it too.

As far as PotD being sold, to say it's taken this long, if that is a new offer, is quite surprising as ultimates have been on sale for quite some time if party finder is any indication. Again, it just strikes me as you're being really insincere with certain things to simply push a narrative.

My point here was what is in an accomplishment when things are cleared quickly by the overachievers? The difficulty has been first figuring out the fights, not actually doing them since you can pre-plan everything before stepping into an encounter if you know what's coming up because someone else has actually done the hard work (and yes, I understand there is still a difference between knowing and execution). Also, to point out, I've never seen a group of random people die 13 times and still clear Innocence or Titania. I could certainly see that with a bunch of high-end raiders that do things together and still learning the fight, or even a couple of high-end players with some randoms, still clearing. I think, when comparing the entirety of the game and problems going on at large, people tend toward something out of proportion to what is more likely to occur to exacerbate their point.

EDIT: If people are really wanting a challenge, FFLogs Challenge is a thing.

[HyoMinPark]

The fact that they were over-tuned or bugged isn't really of consequence for what I was trying to point out. The time investment to clear in this game is fairly minimal while also not discounting other outside factors (IE: Midas was the tier before CD resets upon wipe. It cannot be overstated just how much that cut down on progression time). To say this tier is this much easier because it was killed faster, since you took the liberty of posting Eden's clear time, or because the jobs became less convoluted seems insincere as all previous tiers of Creator were bloated by CD timers waiting to be ticked off.

Then, perhaps be a bit more clear on what you were trying to say rather than being vague? How am I supposed to correctly infer your statement when you basically say nothing?

While cooldown reset was a god-send and did cut back on clear time, I highly doubt that shaved off a week plus worth’s of progression time (if we were to just compare Midas and Creator). It may be big, but I don’t think it was that big. To insinuate such is being insincere, as you are accusing me of being by simply stating that Savage has gotten easier.

Conversely, I don’t consider my argument insincere, since it’s fairly well known that the difficulty of Savage has decreased since Creator’s release: I believe the developers even said that Creator would be easier than Midas in terms of difficulty when discussing the tier. Additionally, they said that Deltascape would be the same difficulty as Creator—but it was far easier (World First for O1S was cleared in the first pull; I don’t think Refurbisher had that kind of honor). Sigmascape was stated to be the same difficulty as Deltascape, and it was cleared in a similar time. Only Alphascape showed any real increase in difficulty, but I still found it fairly easy. I think, at most, it was around Creator difficulty.

As for Eden’s Gate, the developers admitted that, while the second floor has a higher required DPS check compared to previous second floors (I believe the jump between E1S and E2S DPS check is 10,000 rDPS there about?), the HP of bosses were reduced 15% instead of the standard 10%. So they were made to have significantly less HP. Mechanically, I found the third floor lacking compared to previous third-tier floors (Hali, Guardian, Omega); and I am not entirely alone in this opinion. Leviathan has two major mechanics (Tsunami 1 and Tsunami 2), but they aren’t anything spectacularly difficult.

I also don’t think that jobs being “convoluted” had much of an impact. They’ve been simplified with Shadowbringers, sure. But I don’t think that the changes in playstyle or complexity affected the clear time of Eden as significantly as you seem to want to imply.

Also, a correction to your all of 4.0 raids took 18 hours: I have to point out that O12S did take 41 hours to clear while A12S took 50 hours. If the clear time in savage, or that it seems easier by a select bunch of individuals that are, indeed, a niche, is simply unacceptable, it begs me to question why ultimates were created if the difficulty change to savage is still being pushed. It comes off as a blatant case of trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Is there something wrong with some raiders asking that Savage content be a bit more difficult simply because Ultimate exists? Or is it just something that you personally dislike? Because I’m getting the impression of the latter being the case here, if I’m to be quite honest with you.

Personally, I don’t see a problem in asking for Savage to feel, I don’t know, more “savage”? I’d like for floors to take me a bit more time as opposed to a lockout to clear a fight (E1S actually took my static an hour to clear on Day 1—I wish it had actually taken longer). But this is my opinion.

As far as PotD being sold, to say it's taken this long, if that is a new offer, is quite surprising as ultimates have been on sale for quite some time if party finder is any indication. Again, it just strikes me as you're being really insincere with certain things to simply push a narrative.

I don’t know how long selling solo PotD 200/HoH 100 runs has been a thing; it’s not something I really keep up with. But I do think it’s disingenuous to really compare Deep Dungeon content to Savage/Ultimate content when it comes to clear time.

PotD and HoH can revolve very heavily around luck and RNG when it comes to the higher floors, and you only really have yourself to rely on. By nature, they’re fairly unpredictable. Savage and Ultimate, on the other hand, don’t involve any luck and are a collaborative, scripted effort. I don’t think either are particularly harder or easier compared to one another—I just think they are two separate beasts that shouldn’t be compared as if they are the same. That’s a disingenuous assessment, in my opinion.

That said, my premise was about Savage and its current state; and how I feel as if it is a shadow of what it used to be. Not PotD or HoH. I was not the one who attempted to compare them to another piece of content that’s not remotely similar in nature or execution.

My point here was what is in an accomplishment when things are cleared quickly by the overachievers? The difficulty has been first figuring out the fights, not actually doing them since you can pre-plan everything before stepping into an encounter if you know what's coming up because someone else has actually done the hard work (and yes, I understand there is still a difference between knowing and execution). Also, to point out, I've never seen a group of random people die 13 times and still clear Innocence or Titania. I could certainly see that with a bunch of high-end raiders that do things together and still learning the fight, or even a couple of high-end players with some randoms, still clearing. I think, when comparing the entirety of the game and problems going on at large, people tend toward something out of proportion to what is more likely to occur to exacerbate their point.

EDIT: If people are really wanting a challenge, FFLogs Challenge is a thing.

My opinions have always been voiced from someone who is fairly midcore when it comes to raiding (Maybe semi-hardcore? Since I like optimizing my jobs, but even that’s a stretch, I think...). I am not a world-first caliber raider; but, I still find that the tiers feel progressively easier, and I feel as if I don’t get as much accomplishment out of clearing some of the floors simply because they feel too easy. I’m sure the rebuttal to this will be “Well, maybe they feel easier because of your own growing skill”, but I raided this tier on a job that I hadn’t been playing for 3 years (and am still trying to optimize), and I still found it more simple than previous tiers (which, as stated by the developers, it was made easier).

If you would like to lump me in with “overachievers”, be my guest: I would just simply like to see tiers last longer for the world-firsters—because that means they will also last longer for those of us who are not as skilled (including myself).

Clearing 3 out of 4 of the fights this tier Week 1 and the fourth fight Week 2 was exhilarating and exciting for me; but I would not be opposed to it simply taking me longer to clear (with the added time needed being a direct result of the fights simply being harder—not Ultimate-caliber hard, but harder than they currently are). If I were to clear them early, I think that if they felt harder to me, clearing them early would feel like an even greater accomplishment.

I am speaking more so about myself personally when it comes to accomplishment—I removed the statement you initially quoted simply because it was poor wording on my part, and I figured it would likely start a debate much like this one. I felt it better to just take it out, but I clearly didn’t edit fast enough. Again, if you would like to label me an overachiever, then be my guest.


I don’t really have to argue much about tiers becoming easier when the developers come out and directly say that they made them easier. Posting clear times or not, I feel that this is undebatable and a fairly straight-forward assessment.

3.0 Bard was the best iteration of Bard, you know it to be true.

While I am one of two people alive that actually liked bowmage, HW BRD was a busted mess towards the end of the expansion. Balance-wise, it (and MCH) were awful (they could out-damage MNK and BLM). 4.x BRD could have used some adjustments to prevent its powercreep, but I think it was the best iteration of the job, personally.


I think HW DRK was good. Better than 4.x or 5.0 DRK. And I kind of liked HW WAR, even though I didn’t play it at a high level: building up Wrath stacks for Fell Cleave was fun.

[JunseiKei]

[snip]

You mentioned nothing cleared after week 2 this tier is worth its salt. I said other than two instances, nothing has taken any length to complete. It's not vague. It just wasn't spelled out plainly because I didn't think it needed to be spelled out. My apologies.

Yes, it's insincere to say all of 4.0 raids took 18 hours as the way it was phrased.

Midas took 17 days. Apparently, there was a bug in that tier, too, and that held things up. If Midas had CD resets, the time would probably be much lower than what's recorded. However, that's all speculation from both sides.

I never said it was insincere to say savage has gotten easier. I said it was insincere how it's being presented. The above hours for 4.0 raids to clear is a nice example of how it's being presented is misleading.

I also don't get comparing fight difficulty using the best-of-the-best players as the standard of difficulty for everyone else to be around to progress gear. Difficulty is highly subjective, as is fun. Saying Deltascape would be the same difficulty as Creator, but was then far easier is subjective. From viewing from my old static that did both fights, yeah, I'd say that checks out; Deltascape felt about the same difficulty as Creator coming from a decidedly midcore static. Again, that's insincere as if it's easier, then it'd be easier across everyone that experienced these fights at the time they were current content. If not insincere, it's applying a narrow viewpoint for the entirety of the community with little to no regard to others nor for whom the content is made for (IE: ultimates being made for the high end raider, therefore it is tuned for the high-end raider).

Nothing wrong with asking for more challenging content. What I am saying is it need not apply to simply savage. Ad hominem aside, it comes down for whom the content is made for. Considering SE keeps making savage "easier" (since that's subjective), it appears that savage is not made for the high-end raider only.

The comparison of PotD to savage and ultimate is the amount of time it took to clear and the, I guess, dedication(?) it took to actually get it done. There's far more risk involved in solo deep dungeon, and yes, as you pointed out, RNG. In my book, that makes actually getting the clear even more of an achievement than following a script. If people simply want a challenge, prestige or accomplishment, well, you've got one right here.

Again, I don't care if people want harder content - I'd like it too. Jeeze, why do you think I dislike people asking for things when it's a genuinely fair thing to ask for? Is it because I'm simply on the opposite viewpoint? Well, just because two people disagree on something doesn't mean that person hates it, only that they disagree with the proposal. However, where it's being asked is what I have a problem with. Nor have I forgotten how Second Coil Savage went as a purely boasting rights, prestige and accomplishment (it was virtually ignored) because nothing but a title was attached to it. It took offering a title and a shiny weapon with an extra materia slot, making it BiS, to entice people. That's something that's always going to remain a stigma in my mind. [Tangent/opinion: People don't want challenge, they want something to show off to others as an accomplishment, but that's my cynical side talking.]

Again, I never said tiers haven't gotten easier. That would be a strawman. My stances have been no content, even designed for the high-end raiders, have lasted for any substantial time. For that reason, I don't see the reason to lock gear progression for the entirety of the game behind even harder content that will ultimately be locked to a very niche group until months later. [Opinion: For expansion, this is especially bad as this would be no content from the end of MSQ until about 4 months.] Gear progression should be achievable for as many players as possible within a target demographic. If the high-end raiders want harder stuff, sure, let them ask for it and I hope they get it. Gear does eventually progress for the lowest-end player, those that cannot clear savage due to skill, disability or simply time constraints, via hunts and 24-man, but otherwise you'll be locking out the midcore players [for 4 months, I might add, if going off of expansion from the above opinion].

It's not about labeling people or not. It's about accessibility and not being exclusive for the sake of pride, which is how much of these complaints about being easy come off. I'm not one for simplification until nothing is left, but I'm definitely not for locking out people who are middling in skill level either. Compromises need to be made and I think savage is fine as a place for that compromise, especially with ultimate being content they are including to fill a difficulty that would be otherwise missing.

Irony aside when even the most so-called hardcore players are using all they can to dumb things down, i dont see what's weird when SE end up giving them what they want.

*Sigh.* I can't disagree with you, though I don't think all of the hardcore players are complaining that savage is too easy while also using tools. I don't even think it's a majority, but it's certainly a vague number of people. Using third party programs for triggers, bots in chat services that tell you exactly how to handle mechanics, even alerts for when skills come off of CDs, I find it at odds with the requests to make things harder.

[Siete]

I am just thinking back to 2.x and 3.x (and to an extent 4.x) content and I am worried about this trend...not only about the design of the extreme/savage encounters but more-so the job player skill ceilings. It seems to me that the difference between a poor to average skilled player compared to a skilled player is minuscule performance wise. There is no real incentive to actually master your job, since you can be really bad and still do 99% of content. Is this the design style going forward? If so, is anyone else concerned? Higher end content should require near-mastery of your job, shouldn't it? Or am I crazy?

You see, there's a slight issue and it's called lag/ping.
If endgame content requires mastery of a job, then many people would be excluded immediatly not because of their skill but of their distance to the server, it would require them to jump continents to play.
I have 300-340ms ping, I can never get to "near mastery" and the best I could get to was 74%youknowwhat with that lag.
I did play with 180ms-200ms once and it felt like FAAAAAAAAAAAST. I didn't check percentile back then but I felt almost twice as strong.
And that is still considered high ping.