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  1. #11
    Player
    Vendalwind's Avatar
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    Jul 2019
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    340
    Character
    Vendal Solairune
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 90
    Fair enough then. I just conclude with my opinion therefore:
    Sks might as well apply to .5 and 1.5 second gcds because i believe the benefits outweigh the negatives. And additionally sks is the only true customization stat we have and making this change would increase that customizing effect.
    (0)

  2. #12
    Player
    Nemekh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    308
    Character
    Nemekh Kinryuu
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    It takes a minimum of 1.2s of anim lock for an instant weapon skill/spell + standard ogcd to resolve. It only takes 75ms or more for someone to clip when weaving an ogcd with Heat Blast, before other net considerations. Scale the ms depending on gcd - 1.2s by dividing the remainder by 4. I explain latency and anim lock of the game here.

    This customisation sought would only exacerbate the ping threshold further by reducing the available window for latency. Really not the best of ideas, especially once you consider having non-standard timings really sucks for any semblance of trying to align with raid synergy.
    (1)
    Summoner Afficionado

    Creator of AkhMorning: https://www.akhmorning.com

  3. #13
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,789
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Quor View Post
    Again, I provide a solution to this; the OP's idea would work great in a purely optional SkS environment, i.e. through materia, or perhaps through some other stat-modifying system. Given the relative lack of customization, I think it's fair to say that the sub-stat system and perhaps even the materia system itself is due for some kind of rework. SE is sitting on a complexity gold mine, and I too would like to see SkS become more relevant outside of hitting a given GCD threshold.
    Isn't this true for every stat save for pure damage scalars? Critical Hit, Skill Speed, anything that can actually does something has a great deal of potential, but we can't get to any of that without some prior fixes. Shouldn't the fact that SkS seems more than other stats to sit on the brink of complexity, or that it makes demands of our gameplay, also indicate that all the other stats are being badly underutilized, in terms of gameplay?

    Now, I fully agree that we should probably have more fine control over our secondary stats. And perhaps that is very much and interlinked discussion, even I had no intention of suggesting something so ambitious nor felt any need for those further changes just to make this one adjustment worth making.

    To be very clear, I'm not saying that removing arbitrary exemptions to SkS's scaling will fix SkS as a whole. (I know, pretty comprehensively, what that would take, and have suggested those fixes elsewhere. That comprehensive solution makes things far more intuitive but is likely not, itself, simple to apply, code-wise, which is why I've not mentioned it here.)
    I'm merely saying it's a very obvious first step worth taking.

    By the same fact that a 1.7-second Hypercharge GCD (with a 12-second Hypercharge/Wildfire) can eventually cause oGCD clipping for high-ping players when stacking enough SkS, a 1.5-second already causes those exact issues, but with no recourse available to the player. Scaling everything simply allows over everything the same degree of control players have had over the rest of their kit. If we can at least attempt to avoid double-weaving issues in our full GCDs by avoiding SkS, we should have the same option for our sub-GCDs. That's it. (For now.)
    (1)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 10-20-2019 at 11:46 AM.

  4. #14
    Player
    JohnnyDevo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    190
    Character
    J'majha Devo
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    >shorter gcd
    >larger weaving space

    ... am I missing something? I feel like I'm missing something
    (1)

  5. #15
    Player
    Vendalwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    340
    Character
    Vendal Solairune
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo View Post
    >shorter gcd
    >larger weaving space

    ... am I missing something? I feel like I'm missing something
    In short:

    SkS doesn't reduce animation locks, so having a faster rolling GCD not only decreases the gap for oGCDs, but the animation lock resultant takes a larger fraction of the gap as well.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    12,789
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo View Post
    >shorter gcd
    >larger weaving space

    ... am I missing something? I feel like I'm missing something
    A shorter GCD = a smaller weaving space.

    Each animation apart from Mudras (and only when chaining into other Mudras, at present) has a standard animation lock of .635 seconds. Add to each your extramarginal ping (ping minus the portion of time into the previous animation your following queued skill can be actuated, which can be oddly limited in this game), and very few players can double-weave below a 2-second GCD.

    The idea is to allow for a longer GCD at first during accelerated (or "sub-") GCDs, which you can then scale down (like everything else on the GCD), so that if you can handle higher speeds (due to low ping), you can go for that, but if you can't, you don't have to clip.

    Longer GCD = larger weaving space.
    Control over GCD length = control over size of weaving space.
    Same as for the other 95% of skills, just for the remaining 5%, too, now.
    (1)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 10-21-2019 at 02:51 AM.

  7. #17
    Player
    Nemekh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    308
    Character
    Nemekh Kinryuu
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Standard lock is 600ms, not 635ms. A player needs <34ms to double weave without a clip on a 2s gcd before further considerations. Lower ms for < 2s gcds.

    Rotations are not just the gcd when you consider the benefit of speed you have to account for the proportion of total damage and a rotation that does not care for it at all. Even if suddenly gcds were longer and scaled with speed to make it more of a usable stat, that would not alter the status quo of avoiding it on jobs that benefit much less from it in general.
    (1)
    Summoner Afficionado

    Creator of AkhMorning: https://www.akhmorning.com

  8. #18
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,789
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    I'm wrong; Nemekh's right. I'm just leaving this post up for continuity of his explanations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemekh View Post
    Standard lock is 600ms, not 635ms. A player needs <34ms to double weave without a clip on a 2s gcd before further considerations. Lower ms for < 2s gcds.
    I'm just going off what frame-by-frame studies over long tests found just prior to SB release, taken at around 25, 50, and 75 ms ping. According to them, the standard lock is likely 38 animation frames (which are each a 60th of a second) or somewhere between .633-barred or .635 seconds, about as nearly as animation frames can approximate to a quarter of the base 2.5s GCD.

    Unless the game has absolutely zero effective server-client queuing (such that every single ms delays oGCD usage) and queued oGCDs must both be sent (ping from client->server) and confirmed (ping from server->client), a 600 ms lock you would require <34 ms only upon reaching a 1.9s GCD ([600+33]*3 = 1899). A 635 ms lock, however, would require a 2s GCD or greater ([.635+33]*3 = 1999 ms) not to clip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemekh View Post
    Rotations are not just the gcd when you consider the benefit of speed you have to account for the proportion of total damage and a rotation that does not care for it at all. Even if suddenly gcds were longer and scaled with speed to make it more of a usable stat, that would not alter the status quo of avoiding it on jobs that benefit much less from it in general.
    No one said they were. I specifically said such a change would not, it itself, make SkS worthwhile, but rather that it's simply an obvious --if small-- adjustment that should happen nonetheless, if only to make playing with jobs like MCH smoother and more intuitive.
    (1)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 10-22-2019 at 09:54 AM.

  9. #19
    Player
    Vendalwind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    340
    Character
    Vendal Solairune
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 90
    Good infos above
    (0)

  10. #20
    Player
    Nemekh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    308
    Character
    Nemekh Kinryuu
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Tests by whom? I certainly don't recall any of the sorts from us, especially not Theoryjerks beyond prior work from Orinx, Alo and I.

    However, we since know animation locks with absolute certainty from more recent, current discoveries.

    Anim lock is sent with the Effects message from the server as a float, which requires rtt ms (ping ms * 2) or round trip time since ActionStart sends out a request and the server acknowledges, then sends a reply back with the anim lock in Effects that the client then processes.

    Instant weapon skills/spells, and most oGCDs are 600ms. If you haven't, read my previously posted link:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemekh @ Akhmorning.com
    This means that for a standard double weave after an instant cast, the total animation lock is:
    3 * (600ms + (2 * yourPing ms)), or 1800ms + (6 * yourPing ms).
    Divide the difference of gcd - 1800ms by 6 and that's the threshold.

    How they execute after the fact is subject to such a myriad of factors that it's not even just up to latency.

    But your numbers are incorrect for how things process it most definitely is not ms * 3. If it were I certainly wouldn't take 3s to double weave! We have done the research for the timings at various levels of latency.
    (3)
    Summoner Afficionado

    Creator of AkhMorning: https://www.akhmorning.com

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