5.1x PvP preliminary feedback

[Nalien]

I think it would have been better to encourage premading with smaller groups, rather than out right limiting it. For example, you could use PvP Teams to provide a bonus for doing Rival Wings/Frontlines with teammates, that not only potentially limits premades (6 players max instead of 4 though), but it also encourages people to form PvP Teams outside Feast Light Party Seasons, which wont happen for gods knows how long given the information SE deigns to provide us with. General rule for games developers; Encouraging players to do something is better than forcing them. Limiting the ability to play with friends in an MMO is asinine, you should instead be encouraging the people who don't play with others to actually do that... Catering to players who seemingly don't want to be playing an MMO is just stupid... The idea behind a PvP mode like Frontlines is to work as a team to win, going in with a premade is a commitment to work as a team... That should 100% be encouraged, not discouraged like this... You're effectively saying "Don't play this game mode properly" to people with this change, while catering to a group that just wants to go in, dick about for 5 minutes, and lose as fast as possible to get their tomestones/etc., changes like this are exactly why XIV PvP is such a pathetic meme. It shows such an overwhelming lack of understanding for the game mode and people that actively play it...

Removing 24 player Frontlines is a completely idiotic move, as I've stated in other threads. Wont bother repeating myself here.

[Rhais]

But those premades make people that just want to solo queue and then mindlessly go from one objective to another, while avoiding all fighting and communication with their team have a hard time. That makes people feel bad, and we can't have that. Better get rid of those premades.
24 player FL makes it hard to be a low effort leech and still get carried for a win, and that makes people feel bad. Better get rid of them.

What's kind of funny though is that at least on some data centers premades were often what gave flames and adders a decent chance at getting a win. Mael will probably end up being even more dominant on data centers where they already were, but who cares about flames and adders, at least premades won't be demoralizing people and making them feel bad.

[RyuDragnier]

Premades locked to 4? Good. Do you know how often 8 man premades suck the fun out of Frontlines? If you're unlucky enough to be stuck in a 24-man Frontlines, they kill both teams once, and become impossible to take down after that because they're going to damage more than you can. That's not fun for the other 16 people there, and often leads to Frontlines where I've seen people sit in spawn because they weren't having any fun, but didn't want to eat a penalty for leaving. 72-mans it's not as bad, but I've seen enough 24-mans to where I despise premades. If you must suffer so the rest of us can have fun, then I'm sorry, suffer. Though I admit the loss of 24-man Frontlines WILL cause a lot of waiting...

[SimonYorke]

Premades locked to 4? Good. Do you know how often 8 man premades suck the fun out of Frontlines? If you're unlucky enough to be stuck in a 24-man Frontlines, they kill both teams once, and become impossible to take down after that because they're going to damage more than you can. That's not fun for the other 16 people there, and often leads to Frontlines where I've seen people sit in spawn because they weren't having any fun, but didn't want to eat a penalty for leaving. 72-mans it's not as bad, but I've seen enough 24-mans to where I despise premades. If you must suffer so the rest of us can have fun, then I'm sorry, suffer. Though I admit the loss of 24-man Frontlines WILL cause a lot of waiting...

There's nothing unlucky about being in an 8v8v8 match versus a premade team when you and every other player are fully capable and actively rewarded for putting in effort to rally a group of people together to create a coordinated group just the same as anybody else. It's a specifically competitive mode that should and does reward coordination and teamwork and this is something that actively hamstrings the people putting in the effort to coordinate better as a team for the sake of a group of people who don't want to put in that same effort.

If a person's response to running into a premade group is to throw their hands up and give up because they aren't having fun rather than fight fire with fire, that's a problem with the players, not the premade. Like I said, I think the 4 person limit is an okay-ish compromise to that, but ultimately I don't agree with it - it's more actively harmful to the people who care about doing better than it is helpful to the people who don't put together premades. This actively affects your ability to coordinate too, even if you refuse to do so.

Purely hypothetical scenario: Imagine if savage raiding did something similar, where you could only queue in with half of a party and the other half had to be plucked from the duty finder. This was done in order to be fair to the people who struggle to clear the content because they can't or don't want to put together a full group of 8 people to clear a raid. Does any part of that sound like a good idea to you?

Tl;dr: While it might be difficult to run into a premade group in frontlines, cutting them in half isn't a correct solution since it equally affects your ability to put together a coordinated group and have a lot more control over the outcome of a match. The only people this is good for are the people who don't want to put in effort to compete, which is a net negative for the game itself.

[Moonlite]

There's nothing unlucky about being in an 8v8v8 match versus a premade team when you and every other player are fully capable and actively rewarded for putting in effort to rally a group of people together to create a coordinated group just the same as anybody else. It's a specifically competitive mode that should and does reward coordination and teamwork and this is something that actively hamstrings the people putting in the effort to coordinate better as a team for the sake of a group of people who don't want to put in that same effort.

If a person's response to running into a premade group is to throw their hands up and give up because they aren't having fun rather than fight fire with fire, that's a problem with the players, not the premade. Like I said, I think the 4 person limit is an okay-ish compromise to that, but ultimately I don't agree with it - it's more actively harmful to the people who care about doing better than it is helpful to the people who don't put together premades. This actively affects your ability to coordinate too, even if you refuse to do so.

Purely hypothetical scenario: Imagine if savage raiding did something similar, where you could only queue in with half of a party and the other half had to be plucked from the duty finder. This was done in order to be fair to the people who struggle to clear the content because they can't or don't want to put together a full group of 8 people to clear a raid. Does any part of that sound like a good idea to you?

Tl;dr: While it might be difficult to run into a premade group in frontlines, cutting them in half isn't a correct solution since it equally affects your ability to put together a coordinated group and have a lot more control over the outcome of a match. The only people this is good for are the people who don't want to put in effort to compete, which is a net negative for the game itself.

I don't object to premades and I also don't object to them removing them. But you don't feel your post is a little "uhhm" not sure what word to use. But lets go over a few things. You are blaming other players for not being able to coordinate others into playing smarter to fight premades. Because if they could do that it wouldn't matter if the other team was premade. Because magically seven other people would play smarter? I use the word smarter, because they might be at the max skill level for them already. I could find it, but a premade is roughly quoted as they prefer 8s because it is hard to coordinate the other teams. They already have 8 people following them and half the people queing are lemmings and they say they can't get them to follow. I did have some luck other day in shatter. Marking the map with a B "attack from behind B" "don't push" "mark" "too far" "pull back" "let them out for double team". I won 6/10, but also could barely play at all. Had to remind "nag" in chat all the time. That isn't really fun.


You give the player base too much credit and the people who form premades not enough. Reaction speed, understanding of engagement, and reading the map. The premades I have been in the past a lot of chat isn't about the actual game. Everyone already knows what to do. They react so much faster. Again I am not against you. You and I have different opinions of the player skill with or with out leadership. Maybe its my imagination, but the basic (I mean very basic) skill level is extremely low.





I also expect unless they rework frontline freelancer premades aren't going away. The system is to exploitable, especially if ques start to go bad. Switch to the shittiest GC turn freelancer off, que german, and time when you press the que button. It might not put you all in the same party, but should put you all on same team in same match. In the past not quite the same but some GCs did this and use to put 3 full parties in at a time.

[SimonYorke]

I don't think our points are mutually exclusive at all here. Ideally a group of people queued in solo are going to know what they're doing just as well as a premade group would and thus rendering most of the issue people take with premades moot. That said, a lot of the issues that people seem to have with premades is that they make matches imbalanced by virtue of having better coordination when the reality is that it's an individual player skill/knowledge issue that is easily solved by, you know. Learning to play the game and utilizing the same tools that others are.

Removing the ability to make a full premade party for PvP isn't a solution to a problem that anybody has except for the people that aren't willing to put in the effort to do the same. It's an individual player skill/knowledge issue, not an issue with premades, and I say as much in that post which yours generally seems to agree with.

[Coopa]

oh come on,main OP skill that premades have its

/target <attack1>

pugs just can't notice big ONE on enemy head or maybe they thinks it's mean that they should ignore that target

[Moonlite]

I don't think our points are mutually exclusive at all here. Ideally a group of people queued in solo are going to know what they're doing just as well as a premade group would and thus rendering most of the issue people take with premades moot. That said, a lot of the issues that people seem to have with premades is that they make matches imbalanced by virtue of having better coordination when the reality is that it's an individual player skill/knowledge issue that is easily solved by, you know. Learning to play the game and utilizing the same tools that others are.

Removing the ability to make a full premade party for PvP isn't a solution to a problem that anybody has except for the people that aren't willing to put in the effort to do the same. It's an individual player skill/knowledge issue, not an issue with premades, and I say as much in that post which yours generally seems to agree with.

I so wish it was a people knew what they are doing. You must have better luck then me. I swear the bots in HWs were smarter then some of the people I see.

[Ailuridae]

Yeah I agree these FL changes are really poorly thought out. Queues outside of peak hours are going to be dead shortly after the people who don't regularly play pvp are done getting their new glamours or w/e and trying to make FL more "fair" by killing premades misses the point. Feast ranked is supposed to be the mode for serious pvp, and with FL being 3 way pvp you're never going to fix that balance issue by taking out premades.

SE really really needs to run changes to modes like this where there isn't a big world first race by the community to get feedback before we're stuck with it for however long their dev pipeline takes to fix changes that people don't like on arrival.

[Ixon]

The people who complain about 8-man pre-mades are still going to lose because they refuse to put in the effort to do anything and everything they can to win. All removing 8-man does is ruin the game mode for those that actually enjoy it, and giving in to the complaints of those who most likely queue once a day.