SMN 5.1 Job adjustments

[Karshan]

I will have to agree to disagree. It's a fecking PET job - so it has to mean something to BE a pet job because the whole point of the job ARE ABOUT PETS helping you do damage. That's the very definition of what a summoner IS. You may as well have Yoshi P/SE just get rid of the normal pets and turn the job into a straight up caster 90% of the time and just summon Bahamut/Phoenix for the "big guns" instead ala Machinist. Like I said before: how it plays now is beyond what it's supposed to be in the game's lore, so basically they broke their own dang lore by turning summoners into something isn't anymore. It's why I much prefer Red Mage and Scholar these days - both have solo survivability (scholar more so) than the current so-called summoner when it comes to soloing content AND leveling. In fact; I would argue that the Scholar job class is EXACTLY what a summoner SHOULD BE - despite the fact it has only ONE actual summon other than Seraph - and no, I can't count Selene since she's pretty much Eos with a different color now in Shadowbringers when they gutted her into an Eos clone.

It shouldn't be. in FF a summoner is NOT a pet job, it's a demi calling job, they only did a pet job because they didn't know better at the time (and every mmo needs a pet job to appeal to some public). Currently as of FF inheritage, they're going the right way with Bahamut and Phoenix. What they should do, is design a REAL, SEPARATE pet class, and then yeah they can take all your advice regarding pets cause you're right, they don't know how to do a pet class.

[dinnertime]

That and SMN was only a pet job in like...FFXI, right? That and FFXI SMN had a bad rep too for how it was designed. Everywhere else it's basically just a (usually more potent) BLM with cutscenes. The new direction FFXIV SMN is going is definitely more inclined to what it is traditionally.

[Namir]

Not even in FFXI was SMN a pet job. You could only keep avatars out for a short time because keeping them out strained your MP, it was basically have them make a move, maybe leave them out for a few seconds then desummon. Only carbuncle could be kept out indefinitely and that was with special rare gloves. Proper pet jobs in FFXI were beastmaster and puppetmaster.

[Osmond]

Not even in FFXI was SMN a pet job. You could only keep avatars out for a short time because keeping them out strained your MP, it was basically have them make a move, maybe leave them out for a few seconds then desummon. Only carbuncle could be kept out indefinitely and that was with special rare gloves. Proper pet jobs in FFXI were beastmaster and puppetmaster.

You got me remembering that job on FFXI. That brings back memories, but yeah not even close to a pet job, just a support/solo job at best. Interesting job though once you get specific gear to manage your MP(Yinyang robe..Please SE bring that into this game). Made them more useful post WotG or Seekers, but pre-CoP, Fenrir was the ship. That doggie was a must for parties.

[Dyvid]

Should've, could've, would've.... SMN is what it is.

[Karshan]

Should've, could've, would've.... SMN is what it is.

Indeed : an iteration not true to Final Fantasy ; the name have you expect something different. Hear me I wouldn't mind a SMN that was this way in any other franchise (teso, wow, whatever). Here, it's Final Fantasy. Name comes with a legacy and expectations. You expect a final fantasy summoner not just the name summoner that could mean various gameplay, no a lot of people want a FF summoner : summon temporarily a big, cool looking entity, that does a big flashy move with big damage, then goes away.

Doesn't go well with MMO styles at first thought (imagine pushing one button every 20 seconds only), yet they managed to make something that looks like it AND is adapted to MMO, in the shape of Demis (they dilute the big flash on 20 sec but you feel powerful when they are here and that's the point, how it feels). I would even have them launch their nuke only once but twice the power (something like 1000 smn eq. potency)

What I do understand also, is that there is quite a number of people as well that want a pet class and that's perfectly fine. All I say is they sacrificed SMN on that alter, and it's time they stopped. That's why I'm advocating for, next expansion, a new class that would be a pet class, and make SMN free of that "specification" burden & go full demis. If some people say "but then it's just a flashy BLM" ? Yeah that's what a FF SMN is, that's what a lot of people expect and want.

[Taranok]

Yeah that's what a FF SMN is, that's what a lot of people expect and want.

Don't forget that if we're being reductive, RDM Is also just a BLM that weaves multiple elements. Hell, there's not much difference between a Ninja or Samurai at that point. It's mostly style and aesthetics. And yet I don't really see people complaining that any 2 DPS jobs are too similar.

It's not about what you're doing, it's how you're doing it, as well as some super nifty animations while getting there. This is why I personally focus on saying that when I want a redesign of SMN in the next expansion, I want the class focused around trances. Sure, it will be very similar to Black Mage doing that since it would mostly be direct damage shenanigans, but the texture of the trance system is completely different than how a BLM works. Between that and higher mobility, the 2 could even be focused around big numbers but feel completely different.

And that's all that matters when designing classes.

[Miziliti]

The thing that amaze me with how SE deals with SMN is that the job gets to be turn a complete 180 degree every expansion. From 3.X to 4.X to 5.X, job have never stay exactly the same. While I think it keeps the job being somewhat more exciting to play, I have also always hated the new iteration at the very beginning every time because of how bad it turned out to be and requires more fine tuning patch after patch.

[Taranok]

The thing that amaze me with how SE deals with SMN is that the job gets to be turn a complete 180 degree every expansion. From 3.X to 4.X to 5.X, job have never stay exactly the same. While I think it keeps the job being somewhat more exciting to play, I have also always hated the new iteration at the very beginning every time because of how bad it turned out to be and requires more fine tuning patch after patch.

To be fair, Machinist got hit by this, BLM got hit by this, now NIN got hit by this. Meanwhile, over in MNK land, they're basically asking for it to happen because the job is stuck in stagnation hell with the devs not really sure what to do with the class and their fumbling about in the dark while not changing the core rotation is also annoying that community.

What's really bad is 5.1's rotation was broken, in a weird way. Reducing the cooldown of trance means that you will innately advance ALL of your trance cycles by 3-5 seconds now. You can sit on it, but you probably won't outside of party coordination shenanigans. Which means Enkindle starts wandering, Aetherflow starts wandering, and Devotion, especially, will constantly come up during FBT now.

The class is...better? But it still has serious design issues and by fixing one problem, it introduced a completely different one.

And, now that EA 1 and 2 are their own GCDs, there is next to no reason for DWT to exist as it does, because you can easily get off all the oGCDs you need to during Egi Assaults. This is good, but it also further highlights how absolutely terribly designed DWT is at the moment, accentuating the necessity of merging Demi-Bahamut into DWT at this point.

Ultimately, I'd go so far as to say it more or less is proving Summoner definitely needs a major, ground-up rework like what Machinist got. But it's no longer a horrifically over-busy job with a ridiculously tight rotation that takes a lot of skill to execute. It just is also....well...broken, just in a different way.

Thankfully, the nature of how it's broken can be accounted for with player skill, and even if you don't account for it, the class is still functional, but all the timers are seriously just not lining up very well from my initial observations.

I'm curious what everyone elses' thoughts are.

[Grimoire-M]

I don’t feel much needs to be changed about SMN from a functional standpoint after they fix the current bug. Devotion needs to be moved and it would be nice if Earthen Armor triggered Further Ruin but otherwise SMN is in a fine spot considering the circumstances. You can weave EA into Bahamut or Phoenix but it’s not necessary to take those risks at all with proper EA and DWT management alongside Energy Drain/Siphon, don’t cap either and you’re good. Pet swaps are mostly redundant outside of AoE burst by the current numbers which I’d consider a plus too.

I’m content with this till the next expansion but I do want change regarding pets.