Thread: SMN 5.1 Job adjustments

Originally Posted by AdamWarlocke

All I am getting is that SE still doesn't know how to make a PET USING CLASS work right. Some of the changes are nice, some of the nerfs aren't. Whoever is in charge of "fixing" the summoner should REALLY take a good, long look at how other MMO's balance their pet-using classes.

Since their "main" competition out here in the West is WoW - then they should extrapolate from how Blizzard built their pet classes and see what they can bring to the table. All they're effing doing is make changes for the END-GAME party setup and not so much on solo-play and leveling. There's not much variation and the "most useful" at "end game" comes down to Garuda (for standard AOE) and Ifrit (as Titan is only situational - at least to me).

I still hate the fact that there's zero versatility when it comes to a pet being unique - all 3 normal ones are DPS, not a single Tank/Healer/DPS/Crowd Control difference between the 3 of them before pulling out Bahamut. Where the EF is the "support" and utility summoners bring? I feel that the way SE is trying to "appeal" to the OCD-DPS-crowd that want fewer buttons to push and are only concerned about damage numbers, they completely got rid of what a summoner is at its core: using pets to combine with their attacks depending on which summon is out strategically.

When a Red Mage can kite and kill faster than you on the field WITHOUT a pet, then you KNOW something is wrong as summoners are basically below now in damage - especially in fights where you need to keep moving. There's also the fact a Red Mage can actually HEAL better as a dps caster thanks to dual cast, it makes physick a joke since it doesn't scale the same way a scholar's physick does. Hell, a scholar's pet "EOS" (not counting Selene since they basically nerfed her six feet under in versatility) is even more useful as an actual pet than all 3 of the summoner's pets (barring Bahamut/Phoenix) combined. As it is - at least to me - they've been moving away from the actual definition of what a summoner is in-game with every "fix".

Whatever it is now in the game that calls itself a "summoner", isn't one.

WoW is the WORST example in class design ever, the pet classes are terrible with years old glitches, heck. Every class is terrible in WoW now.

Originally Posted by Siete

WoW is the WORST example in class design ever, the pet classes are terrible with years old glitches, heck.

Except their pets have been far, far more responsive than ours since at least, what, Wrath? For shi*s and giggles I tanked heroics as a Beast Master back in Wrath, with no issues consequent to poor pet responsiveness. Boar's Speed or any of the similar Mists effects or WoD-Legion talents blew our pet mobility and re-activeness out of the water. Heck, their pet bar is just an extra bar; pet skills start there by default, but you can move them to any other hotbar at will. Meanwhile, over ten years later, ShB releases with pets that eat their queued skills, and simply removes pets as actual pets instead of dealing with their issues of responsiveness, which they leave despite their removal as actual units. Hmm.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Except their pets have been far, far more responsive than ours since at least, what, Wrath? For shi*s and giggles I tanked heroics as a Beast Master back in Wrath, with no issues consequent to poor pet responsiveness. Boar's Speed or any of the similar Mists effects or WoD-Legion talents blew our pet mobility and re-activeness out of the water. Heck, their pet bar is just an extra bar; pet skills start there by default, but you can move them to any other hotbar at will. Meanwhile, over ten years later, ShB releases with pets that eat their queued skills, and simply removes pets as actual pets instead of dealing with their issues of responsiveness, which they leave despite their removal as actual units. Hmm.

Hmm?
You haven't used Demonology Warlock, have you?
If your pet can't trace the enemy when you press the skill, the cooldown is consumed and it's done for.
Dreadstalkers bug and never trigger their starting attack if the enemy moves from the point it was standing at.
Imps are uncontrollable.
Pet sometimes decides to stop attacking and stares at the enemy.

Originally Posted by Siete

Hmm?
You haven't used Demonology Warlock, have you?
If your pet can't trace the enemy when you press the skill, the cooldown is consumed and it's done for.
Dreadstalkers bug and never trigger their starting attack if the enemy moves from the point it was standing at.
Imps are uncontrollable.
Pet sometimes decides to stop attacking and stares at the enemy.

I put in my two gil... I personally haven't played WOW since Cata when I quit, but pets back then (Vanilla/BC/Cata) for Hunter and Warlock in WoW were actually worth their salt - that is until the crybabies started QQ-ing and Blizzard started yoyo-ing both classes every other patch/expansion. The pets were just TOO good - I was among the few that actually popularized Rhino bowling in PVP, and the use of the Gorilladin in some dungeons/raids before the QQ-ing happened. The bloody VoidWalker sometimes served as an off-tank/pinch tank on some raids back then when there's a mechanic that an actual tank can't handle - I should know, I used one - and that was because the talent trees aren't the pigeon-holes they are now apparently in BFA when I looked it up.

So whenever I reference WoW in terms of pet mechanics, it's THOSE instances during WoW's earlier storied history that I refer to because that was how they got pets RIGHT. They even had actual GOOD skill trees. From what I've been hearing these days, WoW pets in terms of hunters is that it's more or less for vanity now rather than for strategy as other than a few gimmicks, just about every pet is the same damage-wise. I don't even want to mention Warlocks because it's just sad.

The only strategy in FFXIV relied more on timing and team coordination, etc. Crowd control is a hit/miss in this game due to some wonky AI, never mind the pets you can't even use other than auto-turrets with the occasional "push button here for special ability". If the OCD-DPS crowd in here are just complaining about the micromanaging, then why the eff are they playing summoner? As it is their voice that SE listens to more because "end game", then they may as well get rid of the normal SMN pets and just have Bahamut/Phoenix as limited boss summons when a "gauge" is full like a Red Mage/Machinist. And when you die, you still get a DPS punishment due to not having a pet out because half of your kit RELIED on pets being on the field - most especially dreadwyrm trance. Red Mages and Machinists don't have that downtime; SMN'rs have to rez, then summon pet, and then start their rotation from opener/trance - and you can't even use UNLESS your pet is out.

I still believe they have ZERO idea of how to make a pet class work right in this game. I've switched to Red Mage/Machinist - they don't have that many negative drawbacks, especially Red Mage - currently one of the most "balanced" jobs I've had the pleasure of switching to so far.

Originally Posted by Siete

Hmm?
You haven't used Demonology Warlock, have you?
If your pet can't trace the enemy when you press the skill, the cooldown is consumed and it's done for.
Dreadstalkers bug and never trigger their starting attack if the enemy moves from the point it was standing at.
Imps are uncontrollable.
Pet sometimes decides to stop attacking and stares at the enemy.

Played one through Nighthold and Odin/Gaum/Helya. Never once had any of those things been an issue, apart from the Dreadstalker bug occurring once when I popped it with both a pathing break and boss movement. Meanwhile, Beast Master's and its pet controls remained almost perfectly responsive, just dull. (I raided EN primarily as Hunter, MM/BM, and ToS primarily as Arms.)
Admittedly, I've not leveled not touched my Lock since BfA dropped, so if they've broke it since then I guess I have all the more reason to stick with Hunter/Rogue/Warrior.

Free mobility is ALWAYS nice and its great that bahamut will bank a wyrmwave now, and Tri-Disaster having 300 potency is a buff on single targets iirc. But for Egi Assaults...


You're basically spending 4 gcds doing nothing in the opener now (those were already instant cast because DWT) and 150 extra pet potency is less impressive in action than on paper for giving up a Ruin 3 to use. Yeah you can stack Ruin IV procs now but you barely need them for anything without weaving Egi Assaults so they're just... there. It's better than not having them but it's still comes off as kinda odd.


Plus these being on the gcd is going to create knock-on effects down the line because they're now twice as slow to dump. 2 of the current savage fights have enough downtime that you have to demi-summon immediately after the boss returns, but you're just going to be stuck sitting on these new egi assaults anyways. They're still dead skills 1/3rd of the time because demi-summons.


Summoner AoE also got a stealth hit since I doubt Tri-Disaster is 300 potency no fall-off AoE, so thats a lot of potency Outburst is losing over dungeon runs. But I could be wrong, and I'll gladly take a flat 300 potency aoe.

These really don't do anything to fix the pet mechanicss fighting against each other for attention, the ghosting, or the dumb ai. I am not impressed.

Originally Posted by AdamWarlocke

All I am getting is that SE still doesn't know how to make a PET USING CLASS work right. Some of the changes are nice, some of the nerfs aren't. Whoever is in charge of "fixing" the summoner should REALLY take a good, long look at how other MMO's balance their pet-using classes.

Well to be honest with how the game is designed/coded it's obvious they're having a hard time with making it so pet-oriented and have tried to step away from it with each expansion, and I think it's a good thing because anything that involves the pets (especially the egi) at the moment is a source of clunkiness and frustration. Not that I don't like it being a pet job, but I do like the direction SMN is going with Trances and Demi.

That and there's really no point in a healing pet. Play SCH for that, and a tank pet is counteracts Demi summon and was largely ineffective or outright useless ever since 2.x. To me the new Titan is more than welcome.

And I have to disagree, it's more of a Summoner than it is back then, with a more promising approach like Trances and Demi that I hope they continue in the next expansion.

Originally Posted by dinnertime

Not that I don't like it being a pet job, but I do like the direction SMN is going with Trances and Demi.

That and there's really no point in a healing pet. Play SCH for that, and a tank pet is counteracts Demi summon and was largely ineffective or outright useless ever since 2.x. To me the new Titan is more than welcome.

And I have to disagree, it's more of a Summoner than it is back then, with a more promising approach like Trances and Demi that I hope they continue in the next expansion.

I will have to agree to disagree. It's a fecking PET job - so it has to mean something to BE a pet job because the whole point of the job ARE ABOUT PETS helping you do damage. That's the very definition of what a summoner IS. You may as well have Yoshi P/SE just get rid of the normal pets and turn the job into a straight up caster 90% of the time and just summon Bahamut/Phoenix for the "big guns" instead ala Machinist. Like I said before: how it plays now is beyond what it's supposed to be in the game's lore, so basically they broke their own dang lore by turning summoners into something isn't anymore. It's why I much prefer Red Mage and Scholar these days - both have solo survivability (scholar more so) than the current so-called summoner when it comes to soloing content AND leveling. In fact; I would argue that the Scholar job class is EXACTLY what a summoner SHOULD BE - despite the fact it has only ONE actual summon other than Seraph - and no, I can't count Selene since she's pretty much Eos with a different color now in Shadowbringers when they gutted her into an Eos clone.