Update on Future UI Changes.

[NoctisUmbra]

I think that whole T, H, C, etc thing is a bit of a waste. All it converys is SE's idea of the intended role for that job. I can tank stuff on WHM but it's not gonna get a T, right? How about WAR's current implementaton? What letter does that get.

That is superfluous information which won't even be accurate all the time. Might as well scrap that idea.

I don't know about classes, but jobs are quite well defined in what they can and can't do.

You can feel limited and insecure or w/e you want about being told what each job's role is via a letter, but it won't change the fact that WHM isn't a tank, PLD isn't a DD, MNK isn't a healer, WAR isn't a caster and DRG isn't a buffer.

[Mychael]

I don't know about classes, but jobs are quite well defined in what they can and can't do.

You can feel limited and insecure or w/e you want about being told what each job's role is via a letter, but it won't change the fact that WHM isn't a tank PLD isn't a DD, MNK isn't a healer, WAR isn't a caster and DRG isn't a buffer.

I disagree with this, sadly. The point is not to be "told what each job's role is," but was (to my knowledge) to allow for macros that target T1 and T2 with cures, so you can always heal the main tank with the same button. If it doesn't work like this, then, frankly, I do think this was a pretty dumb addition. I would rather it just say the class/job in a 3-letter abbreviation, as opposed to trying to determine what role someone is playing (often correct, but not always).

CNJ was able to tank in certain situations before, though not as functionally as a GLA or MRD, and certainly not comparable to PLD or WAR. But of the cross-class abilities that allowed CNJ to have survivability to tank, WHM only loses Sanguine Rite and Decoy--Sanguine Rite is the biggest loss, but the addition of Regen could probably make up for the HP not spent curing yourself. You also gain access to Presence of Mind, which can allow for back-to-back stoneskin. WHM could still tank situationally--and like I said, the letters are, to my knowledge, for macroing purposes, and if I can't set the tank to whatever I want, it loses most of its usefulness (as I said, as opposed to simply displaying CNJ, WHM, GLA, etc. next to the names).

That aside, you make a fair point that "WAR isn't a caster," but WAR can be a tank OR a damage dealer--so what of them? Will they display as TA1? :P

[GreyJorildyn]

Lets see a video of you tanking coincounter :P



Yea lets scrap that because we have no idea what the intended use is. (besides the obvious)

CC can very likely be tanked on WHM. With the abilities WHM has access to it is a very beefy class. If I shot a video of this, would that make you happy? Would you then accept that simply assigning a role based on what SE thinks my job should be, but turns out I can play it different, is kind of a pointless piece of information (which would also be incorrect). Your argument is quite weak here.

Anyhow, how about tanking Ifrit as THM (not intended as a tank right? See below) I've also done Uraeus, Great Buffalo, and Ifrit on CNJ. That doesn't change the fact that under a new system those classes would be defined as a Caster and a Healer.

http://youtu.be/oFIGTtsO7JI?hd=1

SE is notorious for designing a class to do one thing which players then find a way around. In some cases, even a better way to envision the job (NIN tank, RDM tank, etc.).

I don't know about classes, but jobs are quite well defined in what they can and can't do.

You can feel limited and insecure or w/e you want about being told what each job's role is via a letter, but it won't change the fact that WHM isn't a tank, PLD isn't a DD, MNK isn't a healer, WAR isn't a caster and DRG isn't a buffer.

I'm not saying it is as vast as this. It certainly is not. However just about any class with a taunt, cures, and some defensive abilities can tank in this game. Other jobs are quite defined yes, but WHM is not, and WAR is not and those are the ONLY two jobs I mentioned in my post!

[Jinko]

I disagree with this, sadly. The point is not to be "told what each job's role is," but was (to my knowledge) to allow for macros that target T1 and T2 with cures, so you can always heal the main tank with the same button. If it doesn't work like this, then, frankly, I do think this was a pretty dumb addition. I would rather it just say the class/job in a 3-letter abbreviation, as opposed to trying to determine what role someone is playing (often correct, but not always).

It could be used for easier making of a party, it tells you what you have and what you are lacking.

It could be used as I said previously as marking a role for the match making system that the content finder will use. (In WoW you assign yourself a role before entering the queue)

Lets not forget they plan to add 2nd jobs for each class so the roles could possibly change across classes, for example GLA > PLD or GLA > DRK

CNJ was able to tank in certain situations before, though not as functionally as a GLA or MRD, and certainly not comparable to PLD or WAR. But of the cross-class abilities that allowed CNJ to have survivability to tank, WHM only loses Sanguine Rite and Decoy--Sanguine Rite is the biggest loss, but the addition of Regen could probably make up for the HP not spent curing yourself. You also gain access to Presence of Mind, which can allow for back-to-back stoneskin. WHM could still tank situationally--and like I said, the letters are, to my knowledge, for macroing purposes, and if I can't set the tank to whatever I want, it loses most of its usefulness (as I said, as opposed to simply displaying CNJ, WHM, GLA, etc. next to the names).

That aside, you make a fair point that "WAR isn't a caster," but WAR can be a tank OR a damage dealer--so what of them? Will they display as TA1? :P

CNJ may be able to "stay alive" taking hate with normal monsters but they sure as hell can't tank a boss so no they aren't tanks.

[Mychael]

It could be used for easier making of a party, it tells you what you have and what you are lacking.

If this was the case, it would be far more useful to include CNJ,GLA,BLM,WAR instead of H1,T1,C1,T2.

It could be used as I said previously as marking a role for the match making system that the content finder will use. (In WoW you assign yourself a role before entering the queue)

Which means a CNJ could choose "Tank" as their role--so we're all happy, right?

Lets not forget they plan to add 2nd jobs for each class so the roles could possibly change across classes, for example GLA > PLD or GLA > DRK

Yeah, but what about jobs like WAR that *can* play multiple roles?

CNJ may be able to "stay alive" taking hate with normal monsters but they sure as hell can't tank a boss so no they aren't tanks.

If I can remember this evening, I'll get a video for you. ^^

[NoctisUmbra]

It takes more than Flash and Sentinel to tank. WHM is no tank.

[Jinko]

Which means a CNJ could choose "Tank" as their role--so we're all happy, right?

I didn't say you get the choice, its probably just something the system does to make things clearer, as the original dev post said its a way to make it clearer for new players.

Man I duno what the big deal is.

If you are that distressed by it make an addon to display the class/job next to the player in the party UI.

For all we know you can mouse over a player in the party UI and get a pop up box with character information.

If this was the case, it would be far more useful to include CNJ,GLA,BLM,WAR instead of H1,T1,C1,T2.

It makes no difference.

Yeah, but what about jobs like WAR that *can* play multiple roles?

Well maybe they get a choice ? (maybe they are considered T2 ?)

In WoW :-
Priest gets the choice of DD - shadow priest or Healer - Holy Priest.
Paladin gets the choice for all three
Druid gets the choice for all three
Rogue only gets DD
Warrior - DD and Tank.
and so on.

Of course IMO MRD/WAR is a broken class which should be forced into one roll or the other.

War should have been DPS with low defense.

[Mychael]

It makes no difference.

It makes a pretty large difference. Displaying the class/job is informative and always accurate (Um, a WAR is always a WAR rather they're tanking or not), wheras displaying pre-assigned "T"s or "A"s is informative but not always accurate. Having a A1 next to my main tank is not helpful in the slightest and only made things unclear to new players. If you can't remember the classes/jobs in this game and their roles in combat, there's a problem. T's, A's, etc. will only be useful if they are changeable by the party leader.

Well maybe they get a choice ?

Hello. My name is Michael and this is what I've been asking for the whole time. -_- Thanks. But in some situations, some jobs could play roles outside their "normal" role, and some normally do play multiple roles. So instead of restricting choice to MRD/WAR, why not give everyone the choice. -_-'''

[GreyJorildyn]

It takes more than Flash and Sentinel to tank. WHM is no tank.

Yeah, it also takes a certain level of skill and understanding of game mechanics. WHM can most certainly tank a few things. Flash, Featherfoot, all those cures, Shield abilities... besides HP and some defense, what makes you think a WHM cannot tank just like a Paladin? I could easily pick out the 5 best abilities to cross-class for such a situation. If CNJ could do it, I believe WHM could do it too.

All I am saying is I hope that these denotations of job roles are something we can set or customize because it could be the case that a certain job, when played a certain way, can have different applications than SE's intended use.

[NoctisUmbra]

Yeah, it also takes a certain level of skill and understanding of game mechanics. WHM can most certainly tank a few things. Flash, Featherfoot, all those cures, Shield abilities... besides HP and some defense, what makes you think a WHM cannot tank just like a Paladin? I could easily pick out the 5 best abilities to cross-class for such a situation. If CNJ could do it, I believe WHM could do it too.

All I am saying is I hope that these denotations of job roles are something we can set or customize because it could be the case that a certain job, when played a certain way, can have different applications than SE's intended use.

Due to HP and Defense. Also lack of hate increasing skills, hate-inducing skill enhancing traits, etc. it will never compare to a PLD or WAR, jobs that are meant to and designed to tank.

If you want to try to set your WHM up to tank, then go ahead. Point is, it's not meant to and if you're gonna do it anyway than a letter H won't stop you.

The numbers have more application than the letters. I wouldn't be surprised if they scrapped the letters altogether.
However, none of us have to sit here and pretend WHM is a tank to argue some point and/or play devil's advocate.