Potential AST Rework: Cards = Heals

[LariaKirin]

The way I worded it, yes. But there is a significant simplification between :
"Drawing one card that will be DPS up while keeping an eye on Seals and melee or ranged"
and
"Drawing one out of 6 effects, reflecting on how to use it properly, considering jobs around you, the fight itself, the possible Royal Road you will have, or if you want to burn that card which way of getting rid of it would be the better option (redraw or Minor Arcana), or if you want to keep it for another setup (Spread)."

Maybe not universally "boring and bland", but certainly there is far less to think about. Which is arguably something people liked about AST's former card system.

Do you not have to think about how to properly use the card? Do you not have to consider what jobs are around you? Do you not have to consider the fight?

If seals and "melee or ranged" is all you see, then you are well on the pathway to mediocre card usage.

The change to 15 seconds duration alone makes target selection significantly more nuanced than old Arrow vs Spear vs Balance.

[Reynhart]

If seals and "melee or ranged" is all you see, then you are well on the pathway to mediocre card usage.

What do you do with a card that don't match well your divination apart from changing it into an Arcana ?
Or if you already have the seals and Divination is on CD ?

[Mansion]

Do you not have to think about how to properly use the card? Do you not have to consider what jobs are around you? Do you not have to consider the fight?

If seals and "melee or ranged" is all you see, then you are well on the pathway to mediocre card usage.

I'm most likely stressing the adaptation based on what you draw. You did not put a Bole on someone whenever you felt like it, or an Arrow to a MCH or stuff...

My post sure is minimizing the optimization that lies in the current card system, but most likely because I consider every job has its own field of optimization. That and the generic rule of cards, which is knowing when a card is most beneficial to whatever job. Now the DPS up is a safe guard, in the end of the day you did buff dps of your party member. While the other card system required much more involvement to get optimal benefits.

[LariaKirin]

What do you do with a card that don't match well your divination apart from changing it into an Arcana ?
Or if you already have the seals and Divination is on CD ?

I'm pointing out that the statement in regards to the current system is overly simplified. Take a while to read the entire post and understand the context before you ask irrelevant questions.

I'm most likely stressing the adaptation based on what you draw. You did not put a Bole on someone whenever you felt like it, or an Arrow to a MCH or stuff...

My post sure is minimizing the optimization that lies in the current card system, but most likely because I consider every job has its own field of optimization. That and the generic rule of cards, which is knowing when a card is most beneficial to whatever job. Now the DPS up is a safe guard, in the end of the day you did buff dps of your party member. While the other card system required much more involvement to get optimal benefits.

You're focusing on what you had to think about in the old system and ignoring what you have to think about in the new system. No wonder you think it requires less thought.

In the old system, you played the card ASAP because otherwise you'd have delayed your next cards. So you used a simple set of rules based on which job made the most use of the card. You had different ways to transform the cards - which you absolutely needed, because the system revolved around getting rid of the useless cards as soon as possible to make room for the next spread Balance.

You needed to know what card was most beneficial to what job. Now, you need to know when the card is most beneficial to each job.
Conveniently, you can now hold onto the card without losing draws, allowing you to choose a better time window to use it.

The card lasting for 15 seconds means that it's important for you to use it when your target has a burst window, rather than immediately or whenever you feel like it.
No job does constant DPS throughout the entire fight. That BLM pulling 16k dps might look like a juicy target. But if you throw your card whenever you feel like it, you risk giving them a buff during the 12k dps umbral ice phase, rather than the 20k dps astral fire phase.

Here's another scenario: You have a BLM and a MCH in your party. Do you automatically use the card on the BLM? If you do, you're not getting the most out of your cards. MCH has burst windows that can go up to 25k, which BLM cannot hope reach without extreme RNG.

The new system is only less thoughtful or involving because you choose to ignore the more nuanced aspects.

[Billythepancake]

I'm pointing out that the statement in regards to the current system is overly simplified. Take a while to read the entire post and understand the context before you ask irrelevant questions.



You're focusing on what you had to think about in the old system and ignoring what you have to think about in the new system. No wonder you think it requires less thought.

In the old system, you played the card ASAP because otherwise you'd have delayed your next cards. So you used a simple set of rules based on which job made the most use of the card. You had different ways to transform the cards - which you absolutely needed, because the system revolved around getting rid of the useless cards as soon as possible to make room for the next spread Balance.

You needed to know what card was most beneficial to what job. Now, you need to know when the card is most beneficial to each job.
Conveniently, you can now hold onto the card without losing draws, allowing you to choose a better time window to use it.

The card lasting for 15 seconds means that it's important for you to use it when your target has a burst window, rather than immediately or whenever you feel like it.
No job does constant DPS throughout the entire fight. That BLM pulling 16k dps might look like a juicy target. But if you throw your card whenever you feel like it, you risk giving them a buff during the 12k dps umbral ice phase, rather than the 20k dps astral fire phase.

Here's another scenario: You have a BLM and a MCH in your party. Do you automatically use the card on the BLM? If you do, you're not getting the most out of your cards. MCH has burst windows that can go up to 25k, which BLM cannot hope reach without extreme RNG.

The new system is only less thoughtful or involving because you choose to ignore the more nuanced aspects.

The problem of knowing "when" is now you have to memorize every other class rotation in the game, and having 4 DPS to choose from, not only knowing their rotation, but knowing where they are in their rotation so you can give them the card seems honestly absurd. That's a level of tedium that should not be required, your main mechanic should not require you to memorize every DPS class rotation just to make the best decisions on when to use it.

[LariaKirin]

The problem of knowing "when" is now you have to memorize every other class rotation in the game, and having 4 DPS to choose from, not only knowing their rotation, but knowing where they are in their rotation so you can give them the card seems honestly absurd. That's a level of tedium that should not be required, your main mechanic should not require you to memorize every DPS class rotation just to make the best decisions on when to use it.

I'm replying to a post which said that the old system required more thought and involvement for optimal benefit. My point is not that you have to put this much thought into optimal card usage, it is that you can put this much thought into it. More than you ever could with the old system.

Saying you need to memorize every DPS rotation is a bit of an overstatement. I too would argue that knowing who is your best target at any point, in real-time, is too much effort.
However, all you need to know about MCH is that it has the massive wildfire burst starting with the opener and repeating every 2 minutes - this alone will give you better results. If you want to go farther than this, you definitely can. Up to you.

I only wrote that reply because the old system is put on such a pedestal of decision making and complexity, while the new system is characterized as a simplified version of Balance. This is not true, as I think I've demonstrated.

Now, just because you can introduce so much complexity in the new system, does not mean you will. Reality is different from theory.
But that is equally true of the old system. You can list all the options you had in the old system, but it does not change the fact that it was unreliable (RNG) in both of its functions - dps and support - which in turn forced you into a playstyle that simplified its decision process and nullified its diversity.

[MPNZ]

I'm replying to a post which said that the old system required more thought and involvement for optimal benefit. My point is not that you have to put this much thought into optimal card usage, it is that you can put this much thought into it. More than you ever could with the old system.

Saying you need to memorize every DPS rotation is a bit of an overstatement. I too would argue that knowing who is your best target at any point, in real-time, is too much effort.
However, all you need to know about MCH is that it has the massive wildfire burst starting with the opener and repeating every 2 minutes - this alone will give you better results. If you want to go farther than this, you definitely can. Up to you.

I only wrote that reply because the old system is put on such a pedestal of decision making and complexity, while the new system is characterized as a simplified version of Balance. This is not true, as I think I've demonstrated.

Now, just because you can introduce so much complexity in the new system, does not mean you will. Reality is different from theory.
But that is equally true of the old system. You can list all the options you had in the old system, but it does not change the fact that it was unreliable (RNG) in both of its functions - dps and support - which in turn forced you into a playstyle that simplified its decision process and nullified its diversity.

No, it's more like you can put a lotof thought into, but recieve a 0.000000000198364% rdps increase. The new system makes it so that too much extra effort is wasted on negligible gains. Brand's hypothetical is just unnecessary effort when mastery of lightspeed+sleeve draw is all the plus-ultra needed, but still produces less rdps than a two-WHM-comp at the 90 percentile

That said, accomplishing the same feat in 4.0 would have jobs like BRD and BLM going totally berserk in their respective windows, mitigating consecutive aoe damage to negligible levels with aoe bole, or pulling a held aoe150%+balance during DPS checks and enrage timers when available

[Side-Eye]

You can list all the options you had in the old system, but it does not change the fact that it was unreliable (RNG) in both of its functions - dps and support - which in turn forced you into a playstyle that simplified its decision process and nullified its diversity.

Being able to set a card aside to use *precisely* when you need it, mitigated the RNG aspect of cards. Anticipating *which* card to hold onto was part of that engaging decision-making process that is largely absent in the new system.

You can keep saying the old card system was bad.. but there are lots of folks who feel very differently because they made the effort to learn how to play the job in a variety of ways depending on group makeup, fight mechanics, etc. From what I've seen and read, the people who simply fished for balance and paid little attention to other cards were a (vocal) minority.

[MitsukiKimura]

But that is equally true of the old system. You can list all the options you had in the old system, but it does not change the fact that it was unreliable (RNG) in both of its functions - dps and support - which in turn forced you into a playstyle that simplified its decision process and nullified its diversity.

There's still unreliable RNG to this day with what damage cards you draw and the seals you earn. Drawing 4 of the same seal? Well Guess you're only getting that 4% boost.. I've had draws where I've constantly drew nothing but melee cards and the same seal even with using all "3" of my redraw attempts. So trying to say only the old system had unreliable RNG is just unreal in itself. I've never hated the card system more than I do now. They destroyed all the fun of it. It would of been a lot better to just simplify and change a few cards than to redo the whole entire system, now that Whm literally just makes us feel incompetent.

[Reynhart]

That BLM pulling 16k dps might look like a juicy target. But if you throw your card whenever you feel like it, you risk giving them a buff during the 12k dps umbral ice phase, rather than the 20k dps astral fire phase.

Yes, exactly like giving the old Balance to a BLM when he wasn't on Leylines...or giving it to the MCH at a bad time and losing 1/3rd of its uptime when Gauss Barrel is off for 10s...when was already a criteria for giving cards, that's why it had a skill to keep a card in its sleeve.

Did you chose to ignore these nuanced aspects before ?