New Mentor requirements

[Halivel]

I know in less than year playing as a healer got another 1000 comms on top of the 4000+ already had. Notice when tank if there 4 in party get maybe one but when play as healer get 3 to 4 comms each time when in party on 4. tells me needs fixed like needs fix where if in premade party can't give any to other members. Took me years of playing a dps to get 3000 comms. I hear most give them just based on persons glamour.

Well... and still it's not a system's fault, it's people and the fact they used in a way it wasn't really supposed to be used. Healer's job is the most noticeable so unless you were absolutely horrible at it people will tend to commend you. Or, as you said, will use random criteria such as glamours or something else (which actually is more common as I experienced).

[SturmChurro]

Last time I played, I was getting more commendations playing on my DPS than my tank/heal. Really arbitrary.

[HyperiusUltima]

Commendations should stay as they always have been before: Votes for whatever reason at the end of the dungeon that have no value whatsoever. By making Commendations for Mentor be 1500+, you wind up giving it a lot of value just for that achievement alone when in fact it's very difficult to even get commendations unless you're playing Healer or Tank. How should we replace it? I've had a few ideas but none of them fit the requirement or are too difficult for players to achieve realistically.

[Galenini]

The horror stories I did read about Mentors in NN (and never witnessed in my server) are all and everyone worth of a report to SE, and if proven, they may lead to the offensive Mentors lose permanently the status.
Maybe another problem is people never reporting those issues to SE?

Reports were issued. There were no permanent changes.

/goes back to reading the new posts

[Galenini]

...snip

As I've said before, SE is using commendations based on cultural norms that don't (necessarily) hold true in other places.

There are mentors that have admitted and have repeatedly advised sprouts that if they want commendations, go tank or healer, "even if you fail, you will receive one just for showing up." This has been verified via observation / experience.

If you've read my previous posts, you would understand that, in my case, performance is not an issue, time is. I'm not the only one in this position.


Devil's advocate: IF we are saying that those without experience - as measured by commendations - can't teach, then all mentors, at this moment should not be mentors, because they will never have enough "experience" as the game moves forward. Given that the aim of NN is to help new/returning players, the existing requirements (before significant change to commendations) is sufficient. E.G. Which "experience" do we actually need to measure?


I believe I've said it is both a player issue and an SE problem (given differences in perception of what is actually being measured.)

I believe I've said that addressing the underlying issue of mentors who don't contribute (sitting on their laurels), are probably those that joined to get rewards (including mounts). Removing rewards would help eliminate that issue.

I believe I've said that clarifying what NN chat is for (new / returning player focus) in an easily accessible / identifiable format will help address the issue of the unresolved differences in NN use (which includes those toxic mentors focused solely on endgame.)

I believe I've said that reporting mentors abusing the system has occurred.

And I will state again: self-moderation of each mentor themselves and NN chat is part of the solution that players can implement.

(And again as an aside, rewards including mounts, are not meaningful for me, nor are they motivators.)


I do agree with you that we need to investigate the commendations process (as I've also stated.)

Thanks for the feedback.

[HyperiusUltima]

I believe I've said that clarifying what NN chat is for (new / returning player focus) in an easily accessible / identifiable format will help address the issue of the unresolved differences in NN use (which includes those toxic mentors focused solely on endgame.)

So, would I count as one of those 'toxic' mentors you mention? Because honestly I go out of my way to help people willing to learn even though I do have a focus on end-game when it comes to jobs. I would ask that you be careful about using the term 'toxic' when referring to people since it can mean quite a few things depending on perception.

[Galenini]

Duly noted. I needed to be explicit in quoting my earlier post about those mentors who focus solely on endgame, misunderstanding and confusing new players (as well as intimidating some.)

There is nothing wrong with setting expectations and/or helping with endgame, but when done to the exclusion of the purpose of helping new players in a way that has negative impacts, I will continue to call those mentors "toxic".

Thanks for the input.

Again, I should have restated my previous definition; sorry that the qualifying word was not adequate to convey my previous definition.

[HyperiusUltima]

Duly noted. I needed to be explicit in quoting my earlier post about those mentors who focus solely on endgame, misunderstanding and confusing new players (as well as intimidating some.)

There is nothing wrong with setting expectations and/or helping with endgame, but when done to the exclusion of the purpose of helping new players in a way that has negative impacts, I will continue to call those mentors "toxic".

Thanks for the input.

Again, I should have restated my previous definition.

It's all good. Your input in the discussion has been very helpful though. Regardless, we need to think on how to replace the Commendation count as a requirement for Mentorship without it becoming so easy we have the issues we have now. Generally, I think just upping the Dungeon Achievement to "Lifer I" would be more than enough since by the time you've hit 2,000 dungeons/Trials, you would probably know enough to play the game properly(outside of optimizations, of course if we're going by a casual dungeon grind). Of course, this can be outdone by spamming just Ifrit NM. Aside from upping Dungeon/Trial Clear Count, how can we fix this?

[Bewhatever]

So, would I count as one of those 'toxic' mentors you mention? Because honestly I go out of my way to help people willing to learn even though I do have a focus on end-game when it comes to jobs. I would ask that you be careful about using the term 'toxic' when referring to people since it can mean quite a few things depending on perception.

First, thank you for being a mentor and going out of your way to help new players. There is great value in the most experienced players taking time to do this.

The toxic mentors I have referred to, thinking of specific people on my server, have three characteristics:

1. They are elite players with a great deal of experience, whose focus has been entirely on endgame for years. (note that this is *not* all elite players, it's just some of them); AND
2. They are verbally judgmental about players around them whose performance is "less than", whether that is about rotation, gear, general play technique, or knowledge of specific encounters; AND
3. They respond to new player questions with detailed endgame answers incomprehensible to the sprout, rather than with the basics appropriate to the sprout's level

This is toxic in two ways:

First, the sprout is made to feel that if they attempt content challenging to them, they will be judged as "less than" rather than helped to grow through it. This deters players from growing, and encourages them to leave the game.

Second, the sprout does not learn and grow from the answer to their question, instead they are in effect belittled for asking it, confused and made to feel stupid/ignorant by what they heard. Again, if this happens often enough someone may give up on learning things necessary to success later in the game.

NN exists because FF has a steep learning curve for a new player -- both for someone who has played 10 different MMOs in the past 20 years as I have, and someone new to the genre. It is very easy for someone without access to mentoring from a friend or from a guildmate to miss a piece of that learning (if they're good enough at other things they will just soldier through, maybe looking a little less skilled to those around them) (if they don't have enough other skill, they may decide FF is too hard and give up). NN was created as a safe place (beyond friends or guild) for people to get questions answered, help, and maybe even mentoring on their journey through that learning curve. These toxic behaviors negate the basic purpose of NN.

[Galenini]

It's all good. Your input in the discussion has been very helpful though. Regardless, we need to think on how to replace the Commendation count as a requirement for Mentorship without it becoming so easy we have the issues we have now. Generally, I think just upping the Dungeon Achievement to "Lifer I" would be more than enough since by the time you've hit 2,000 dungeons/Trials, you would probably know enough to play the game properly(outside of optimizations, of course if we're going by a casual dungeon grind). Of course, this can be outdone by spamming just Ifrit NM. Aside from upping Dungeon/Trial Clear Count, how can we fix this?

Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I need to be more careful. And I like your suggestion on dungeon/trial counts. That would be a more accurate measure of actual experience.


PS: as far as fixing this...beating head on wall, because it's a SYSTEM problem of interlinking parts.
I think a lot of people posting here have had a collection of good answers, that considered together might help. Don't think there's any ONE specific right answer.