Leveling and 50/60/70/80 Roulettes should be reorganized + Alliance Roulette concerns

[SaitoHikari]

Sargatanas Novice Network actually had an interesting discussion on the roulettes a few nights ago, so I'm taking down the notes in the form of a suggestion thread for posterity's sake. That, and it had legitimately good suggestions that would contribute greatly towards future-proofing the game in the long term.

Looking at the roulettes as of late and how the players behave around them, some long-term problems are starting to come to light. Most notably the Leveling Roulette, the 50/60/70/eventual 80 Roulette, and the Alliance Roulette. However, the Alliance Roulette has a very obvious problem that's separate from the two dungeon roulettes, so that will be addressed last.

To recap, here's a list of available dungeons in the two dungeon roulettes.

Leveling Roulette:
(ARR)
- Satasha (Lv. 15)
- Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Lv. 16)
- Copperbell Mines (Lv. 17)
- Halitali (Lv. 20)
- The Bowl of Embers (Lv. 20)
- The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak (Lv. 24)
- Haukke Manor (Lv. 28)
- Brayflox's Longstop (Lv. 32)
- The Navel (Lv. 34)
- The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Lv. 35)
- Cutter's Cry (Lv. 38)
- The Stone Vigil (Lv. 41)
- Dzemael Darkhold (Lv. 44)
- The Howling Eye (Lv. 44)
- The Aurum Vale (Lv. 47)
(Heavensward)
- The Dusk Vigil (Lv. 51)
- Sohm Al (Lv. 53)
- The Aery (Lv. 55)
- The Vault (Lv. 57)
- The Great Gubal Library (Lv. 59)
(Stormblood)
- The Sirensong Sea (Lv. 61)
- Shishui of the Violet Tides (Lv. 63)
- Bardam's Mettle (Lv. 65)
- Doma Castle (Lv. 67)
- Castrum Abania (Lv. 69)
(Shadowbringers)
- Holminster Switch (Lv. 71)
- Dohn Mheg (Lv. 73)
- The Qitana Ravel (Lv. 75)
- Malikah's Well (Lv. 77)
- Mt. Gulg (Lv. 79)

50/60/70/eventual 80 Roulette:
(Lv. 50)
- The Wanderer's Palace
- Amdapor Keep
- Pharos Sirius
- Copperbell Mines (Hard)
- Haukke Manor (Hard)
- The Lost City of Amdapor
- Halitali (Hard)
- Brayflox's Longstop (Hard)
- Hullbreaker Isle
- The Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hard)
- The Stone Vigil (Hard)
- Snowcloak
- Satasha (Hard)
- The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Hard)
- The Keeper of the Lake
- The Wanderer's Palace (Hard)
- Amdapor Keep (Hard)
(Level 60)
- The Aetherochemical Research Facility
- Neverreap
- The Fractal Continuum
- Saint Mocianne's Arboretum
- Pharos Sirius (Hard)
- The Antitower
- The Lost City of Amdapor (Hard)
- Sohr Khai
- Hullbreaker Isle (Hard)
- Xelphatol
- The Great Gubal Library (Hard)
- Baelsar's Wall
- Sohm Al (Hard)
(Level 70)
- Ala Mhigo
- Kugane Castle
- The Temple of the Fist
- The Drowned City of Skalla
- Hells' Lid
- The Fractal Continuum (Hard)
- The Swallow's Compass
- The Burn
- Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard)
- The Ghimlyt Dark
(Level 80)
- Amaurot
- The Twinning
- Akadaemia Anyder

Notice something? The list of 50/60/70 dungeons (currently 40, will soon be 43) is far larger than the list of Leveling dungeons (27, 30 if you count the three ARR normal mode trials). Yet the roulette for the former tends to have far longer queue times than that of the latter, since the latter in the eyes of the community is currently far more rewarding than the former. This has led to certain points in player progression where queue times for story-required dungeons in the 50/60/70 category end up absurdly long, especially for DPS players. (Plus 'Duty Roulette: 50/60/70 Dungeons currently clips in the duty finder screen. If that isn't an argument towards re-organizing it to this development team, I don't know what is.)

To address that problem, I propose that we re-categorize Leveling and 50/60/70/80 Roulette into Leveling Roulette: Story Dungeons and Leveling Roulette: Optional Dungeons. The reward for both roulettes should be equalized as well, having both roulettes award the same EXP/Poetics tome rewards as current Leveling Roulette (if below max level) and the same Goetia/etc. tome rewards as current 50/60/70 Roulette (if at max level).

This would re-shuffle the roulettes into the following dungeons.

Leveling Roulette: Story Dungeons
- Satasha (Lv. 15)
- Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Lv. 16)
- Copperbell Mines (Lv. 17)
- The Bowl of Embers (Lv. 20)
- The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak (Lv. 24)
- Haukke Manor (Lv. 28)
- Brayflox's Longstop (Lv. 32)
- The Navel (Lv. 34)
- The Stone Vigil (Lv. 41)
- The Howling Eye (Lv. 44)
- Snowcloak (Lv. 50)
- The Keeper of the Lake (Lv. 50)
- Sohm Al (Lv. 53)
- The Aery (Lv. 55)
- The Vault (Lv. 57)
- The Great Gubal Library (Lv. 59)
- The Aetherochemical Research Facility (Lv. 60)
- The Antitower (Lv. 60)
- Sohr Khai (Lv. 60)
- Xelphatol (Lv. 60)
- Baelsar's Wall (Lv. 60)
- The Sirensong Sea (Lv. 61)
- Bardam's Mettle (Lv. 65)
- Doma Castle (Lv. 67)
- Castrum Abania (Lv. 69)
- Ala Mhigo (Lv. 70)
- The Drowned City of Skalla (Lv. 70)
- Hells' Lid (Lv. 70)
- The Swallow's Compass (Lv. 70)
- The Burn (Lv. 70)
- The Ghimlyt Dark (Lv. 70)
- Holminster Switch (Lv. 71)
- Dohn Mheg (Lv. 73)
- The Qitana Ravel (Lv. 75)
- Malikah's Well (Lv. 77)
- Mt. Gulg (Lv. 79)
- Amaurot (Lv. 80)
(33 dungeons, up from Leveling Roulette's 27. 34 if you include Amaurot, 37 if you include the three normal mode trials. Hell's Lid and Swallow's Compass are categorized as story dungeons because they are both required to progress further in the Four Lords trial series, even if they are not part of the MSQ themselves.)

Leveling Roulette: Optional Dungeons
- Halitali (Lv. 20)
- The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Lv. 35)
- Cutter's Cry (Lv. 38)
- Dzemael Darkhold (Lv. 44)
- The Aurum Vale (Lv. 47)
- The Wanderer's Palace (Lv. 50)
- Amdapor Keep (Lv. 50)
- Pharos Sirius (Lv. 50)
- Copperbell Mines (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- Haukke Manor (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- The Lost City of Amdapor (Lv. 50)
- Halitali (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- Brayflox's Longstop (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- Hullbreaker Isle (Lv. 50)
- The Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- The Stone Vigil (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- Satasha (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- The Sunken Temple of Qarn (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- The Wanderer's Palace (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- Amdapor Keep (Hard) (Lv. 50)
- The Dusk Vigil (Lv. 51)
- Neverreap (Lv. 60)
- The Fractal Continuum (Lv. 60)
- Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Lv. 60)
- Pharos Sirius (Hard) (Lv. 60)
- The Lost City of Amdapor (Hard) (Lv. 60)
- Hullbreaker Isle (Hard) (Lv. 60)
- The Great Gubal Library (Hard) (Lv. 60)
- Sohm Al (Hard) (Lv. 60)
- Shishui of the Violet Tides (Lv. 63)
- Kugane Castle (Lv. 70)
- The Temple of the Fist (Lv. 70)
- The Fractal Continuum (Hard) (Lv. 70)
- Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard) (Lv. 70)
- The Twinning (Lv. 80)
- Akadaemia Anyder (Lv. 80)
(34 dungeons, down from 50/60/70 Roulette's 40. 36 if you include Twinning and Akadaemia.)

As an additional suggestion, the way roulettes determine which dungeon you get should be redone as well, to be weighted towards each players' current job level.

People don't like it when a party full of level 60+ players somehow ends up being dropped into Satasha. The game has a problem with many people reaching endgame without really knowing how to use some of their skills effectively. The daily method of leveling having a high chance of dropping you into a lower level dungeon where you can't practice using your new skills doesn't help the situation either.

Some examples of this proposed change...

The roulette selects 4 players. Their current job levels are as follows:
- Lv. 76 Warrior
- Lv. 68 Astrologian
- Lv. 71 Dragoon
- Lv. 60 Summoner

All four queued into 'Story Dungeon Roulette'. Since the Summoner is the lowest level, the proposed weighting system means that the roulette will only consider all dungeons up to 10 levels below the lowest level party member, and no lower than that. In this example, the Summoner is the lowest level party member at 60.

That means the group will get one of the following dungeons:
- Snowcloak
- The Keeper of the Lake
- Sohm Al
- The Aery
- The Vault
- The Great Gubal Library
- The Aetherochemical Research Facility
- The Antitower
- Sohr Khai
- Xelphatol
- Baelsar's Wall

If the Summoner had been Level 61 instead, Sirensong Sea would be added, and Snowcloak and Keeper of the Lake would be removed from consideration. If the Summoner had been higher level than the Astrologian, Sirensong Sea, Bardam's Mettle, and Doma castle would be added, but everything prior to the Great Gubal Library would be removed.

However, if one of the four players in the roulette manually queued for a specific dungeon, that player will override the weighting system with their choice of dungeon. In the event that the player queued for multiple dungeons at once, and assuming the remaining three players' job levels are higher than the dungeons that the first player queued for, the game would then prioritize the highest level dungeon(s) chosen.

If you don't want the roulette to pick dungeons based on your actual job level, there would be a new setting in the Duty Finder options to turn that off.

---

Alliance Roulette... Where do I even begin?

The original purpose of Alliance Roulette was to revitalize the older 24-man raid series. Prior to the Roulette being introduced, the Crystal Tower raid series especially would frequently see queue times of 1-2+ hours.

Now, because of people lowering their item level to force the roulette to choose the lower level raids for the roulette, we now have the exact opposite problem: The roulette frequently chooses the level 50 Crystal Tower raid series above all others. Orbonne Monastery, the most recent Alliance raid, now sees queue times upwards of 2+ hours.

Get rid of item level weighting for the Alliance Roulette. The roulette should not be manipulated in this way. Orbonne may be harder than the rest, but it wouldn't be the insurmountable task the community thinks it is if experienced players actually started doing it again, instead of it being a raid that is now more or less limited to new players who missed the train before.

(If it's really needed, Orbonne could use a nerf too, and/or rewards could be scaled up much higher for the Void Ark and Ivalice raid series.)

[Raldo]

The reward for both roulettes should be equalized as well, having both roulettes award the same EXP/Poetics tome rewards as current Leveling Roulette (if below max level) and the same Goetia/etc. tome rewards as current 50/60/70 Roulette (if at max level).

This is really the only fix needed. I don't see how splitting the current 50/60/70 into two roulettes helps anything. Also, I'm a little baffled why 50/60/70 doesn't award ANY weekly-capped tomes.



For ally raids, I think the minimum iLevel should be set to whatever the minimum iLevel of the highest raid you can enter is. If you're Lv70+, then it's set to Orbonne's iLv, if you're 60+ then it's set to Dun Scaith's iLv, etc.

[SaitoHikari]

This is really the only fix needed. I don't see how splitting the current 50/60/70 into two roulettes helps anything. Also, I'm a little baffled when 50/60/70 doesn't award ANY weekly-capped tomes.

For ally raids, I think the minimum iLevel should be set to whatever the minimum iLevel of the highest raid you can enter is. If you're Lv70+, then it's set to Orbonne's iLv, if you're 60+ then it's set to Dun Scaith's iLv, etc.

For the latter, that works too. Expert Roulette currently works the same way, after all.

For the former, it's more about equalizing the amount of dungeons available to each roulette. If we don't do the step of reshuffling the dungeons across both roulettes but equalize both, some people will just not bother doing Leveling Roulette at all (and switching to exclusively doing 50/60/70/80 roulette) due to a big chunk of the dungeons consisting of pre-Lv. 50 ARR dungeons. Then we have the problem of progression being slowed for new players. With the roulettes being re-categorized, the story roulette actually contains more higher level content, while the optional roulette has more mid-game/expansion level cap content.

[Raldo]

For the latter, that works too. Expert Roulette currently works the same way, after all.

For the former, it's more about equalizing the amount of dungeons available to each roulette. If we don't do the step of reshuffling the dungeons across both roulettes but equalize both, some people will just not bother doing Leveling Roulette at all (and switching to exclusively doing 50/60/70/80 roulette) due to a big chunk of the dungeons consisting of pre-Lv. 50 ARR dungeons. Then we have the problem of progression being slowed for new players. With the roulettes being re-categorized, the story roulette actually contains more higher level content, while the optional roulette has more mid-game/expansion level cap content.

Sometimes I wonder if they just can't figure out how to have a flexible iLevel for roulettes (and is probably why they haven't put an iLevel on leveling dungeons). Expert works that way in theory, but in reality it only ever changes when a patch changes it, not as a reaction to the player.

As for the rest, yeah that's a fair point.

[SaitoHikari]

Actually, putting an ilvl restriction on Alliance Roulette wouldn't work upon further thought, because part of Alliance Roulette's purpose is to also act as an additional way to level for those who aren't level capped. An ilvl restriction basically means that it'd only really exist for the tomes for level capped players. And yeah, Expert Roulette's the only one with an ilvl restriction because every dungeon in Expert Roulette is level capped content by default.

[Edax]

Alliance Roulette... Where do I even begin?

The original purpose of Alliance Roulette was to revitalize the older 24-man raid series. Prior to the Roulette being introduced, the Crystal Tower raid series especially would frequently see queue times of 1-2+ hours.

Now, because of people lowering their item level to force the roulette to choose the lower level raids for the roulette, we now have the exact opposite problem: The roulette frequently chooses the level 50 Crystal Tower raid series above all others. Orbonne Monastery, the most recent Alliance raid, now sees queue times upwards of 2+ hours.

Get rid of item level weighting for the Alliance Roulette. The roulette should not be manipulated in this way. Orbonne may be harder than the rest, but it wouldn't be the insurmountable task the community thinks it is if experienced players actually started doing it again, instead of it being a raid that is now more or less limited to new players who missed the train before.

This may be slightly unrelated but I think the ability to earn glam from these old raids is too...punishing. In this environment where everyone drops their item level to do the level 50 raids, I've done Labyrinth of the Ancients a dozen of times a month, yet I still don't have the full Fuma gear set for my Ninja. Because I'm trying for this set, I always queuing as the same class and repeating this dungeon to the point of tedium. These old raids provide no useful gear anymore so the only reason we run it is for glam and tomes. I really wish the Alliance roulette rewarded raid tokens that allowed the gear sets to be redeemed eventually one at a time, perhaps with tokens so we can finally complete the gears sets eventually. Because as is, I feel like I'm wasting my time when I don't get a level 50 raid. I like the Ivalice armor sets but the raid pacing is slow and the loot drop RNG / greed rolling makes getting the gear a nightmare.

If I had a more reasonable method of getting Ivalice glam, I would be more encouraged to not manipulate my item levels to get the faster raids which have the gear I want. Sure someone might suggest to me to not use the Alliance Roulette to get my glam but those tomes are the only thing actually progressing my character.

[SaitoHikari]

This may be slightly unrelated but I think the ability to earn glam from these old raids is too...punishing. In this environment where everyone drops their item level to do the level 50 raids, I've done Labyrinth of the Ancients a dozen of times a month, yet I still don't have the full Fuma gear set for my Ninja. Because I'm trying for this set, I always queuing as the same class and repeating this dungeon to the point of tedium. These old raids provide no useful gear anymore so the only reason we run it is for glam and tokens. I really wish the Alliance roulette rewarded raid tokens that allowed the gear sets to be redeemed eventually one at a time, perhaps with tokens so we can finally complete the gears sets eventually. Because as is, I feel like I'm wasting my time when I don't get a level 50 raid. I like the Ivalice armor sets but the raid pacing is slow and the loot drop RNG / greed rolling makes getting the gear a nightmare.

If I had a more reasonable method of getting Ivalice glam, I would be more encouraged to not manipulate my item levels to get the faster raids which have the gear I want. Sure someone might suggest to me to not use the Alliance Roulette to get my glam but those tomes are the only thing actually progressing my character.

That's true. The devs should let us exchange the Alliance raid tokens for specific gear pieces for glam purposes too. Make currency for the crystal tower raid series for that purpose too, while we're at it.

(And also overhaul the currency tab to include the Alliance raid tokens, at that. I have 38 Dun Scaith shillings, and I'm not tossing them out, period.)

[ctcc42]

Ok I am just going to address the alliance roulette.

I think a lot of people who limit their ilvl do so not because they don't want want to run the content. They do it because they don't want to invest their time without receiving a reward.

I am not a fan of 24 man content. The reason being that they mostly fall into one of two categories.

Category one is exemplified by the crystal tower. Its boring. I can sign up, follow the group. just hit my basic combo rotation and watch an anime on another screen while I wait to get my reward.

Category two is exemplified by orbonne. The content is engaging, and commands my attention. Nothing wrong with its difficulty level. BUT I have only 1/24th control over whether I get a reward in this content. I need the people who signed up hoping for a category one experience to stick around, learn the mechanics and not vote abandon every time cid wipes them.

So how do we fix this? We need to divorce the category one raids from the category two raids. The problem with alliance roulette is that people who are only interested in the category one experience end up in category two. I would far rather wait longer for an enjoyable raid with people who want to do it too, then to wait for a duty to pop that will ultimately end in a vote abandon because half those in it dont want to be there.

I hope it doesn't sound like I am blaming people who would like to just the crystal tower over and over. Your not my people. I don't understand you. But I respect your right to play what you enjoy and I really don't want to hold you hostage in something you do not.

If there were two alliance roullets, or maybe one for each raid series, I think a lot of people who lower their ilvl currently would run orbonne. I know some people do it to avoid the content itself. But I am pretty sure a good number are doing it to avoid dumping an hour of their life into something with no reward due to vote abandon. Fix that and I think they will sign up... probably... am I being too hopeful hear?

[Tridus]

So how do we fix this? We need to divorce the category one raids from the category two raids. The problem with alliance roulette is that people who are only interested in the category one experience end up in category two. I would far rather wait longer for an enjoyable raid with people who want to do it too, then to wait for a duty to pop that will ultimately end in a vote abandon because half those in it dont want to be there.

I hope it doesn't sound like I am blaming people who would like to just the crystal tower over and over. Your not my people. I don't understand you. But I respect your right to play what you enjoy and I really don't want to hold you hostage in something you do not.

If there were two alliance roullets, or maybe one for each raid series, I think a lot of people who lower their ilvl currently would run orbonne. I know some people do it to avoid the content itself. But I am pretty sure a good number are doing it to avoid dumping an hour of their life into something with no reward due to vote abandon. Fix that and I think they will sign up... probably... am I being too hopeful hear?

I don't think they would. The people in question want the reward for the least effort possible, and CT you can watch TV and still get the reward because it's so trivialized. Part of that is that Labyrinth item level syncs at something like double the level the dungeon was tuned for. Orbonne syncs much closer to it's intended level and that makes it much less forgiving. You could help it now by raising the sync level on Orbonne so it gets easier with 80 gear in ShB. Or you could make CT harder by syncing it down to 70 and making people actually do mechanics.

The problem now is that I wasn't around when Orbonne was current, so I want to get it done. The queue is appalling, and eliminating that problem is the entire reason Alliance Roulette was created. It's currently not fulfilling it's intended function due to all the people exploiting it to get CT. Meanwhile, CT is so mind numbingly boring that I don't even want to queue for the roulette at all anymore. Mixing it up more would help a lot.

They need to put an ilvl requirement on it, or not have the raids in the roulette that aren't current content (so the one that comes out in 5.1) care about ilvl and put people in no matter what so this problem ends. People will learn how to do Orbonne again if it comes up more than never. Making it easier by boosting the sync level would help too. And nerf the crap out of CT rewards while you're at it so it reflects the effort going in.

[Tridus]

Notice something? The list of 50/60/70 dungeons (currently 40, will soon be 43) is far larger than the list of Leveling dungeons (27). Yet the roulette for the former tends to have far longer queue times than that of the latter, since the latter in the eyes of the community is currently far more rewarding than the former. This has led to certain points in player progression where queue times for story-required dungeons in the 50/60/70 category end up absurdly long, especially for DPS players. (Plus 'Duty Roulette: 50/60/70 Dungeons currently clips in the duty finder screen. If that isn't an argument towards re-organizing it to this development team, I don't know what is.)

The rewards are a big factor in that. Levelling roulette is far, far more rewarding that 50/60/70 roulette. If you're only doing one, you're doing levelling.

To address that problem, I propose that we re-categorize Leveling and 50/60/70/80 Roulette into Story Dungeon Roulette and Optional Dungeon Roulette. The reward for both roulettes should be equalized as well, having both roulettes award the same EXP/Poetics tome rewards as current Leveling Roulette (if below max level) and the same Goetia/etc. tome rewards as current 50/60/70 Roulette (if at max level).

Yes, that needs to be done. Your list makes sense, as well. Given that at this point 50/60/70 can put you at a low level than levelling can, I'm not sure why they are still spit up that way. The new list makes sense.

As an additional suggestion, the way roulettes determine which dungeon you get should be redone as well, to be weighted towards each players' current job level.

People don't like it when a party full of level 60+ players somehow ends up being dropped into Satasha. The game has a problem with many people reaching endgame without really knowing how to use some of their skills effectively. The daily method of leveling having a high chance of dropping you into a lower level dungeon where you can't practice using your new skills doesn't help the situation either.

Seriously, this. There's no need to make us do something at level 15 when the lowest level in the group is 72. That's just not fun.

Alliance Roulette... Where do I even begin?

The original purpose of Alliance Roulette was to revitalize the older 24-man raid series. Prior to the Roulette being introduced, the Crystal Tower raid series especially would frequently see queue times of 1-2+ hours.

Get rid of item level weighting for the Alliance Roulette. The roulette should not be manipulated in this way. Orbonne may be harder than the rest, but it wouldn't be the insurmountable task the community thinks it is if experienced players actually started doing it again, instead of it being a raid that is now more or less limited to new players who missed the train before. (If it's really needed, Orbonne could use a nerf too.)

Agreed. Orbonne could be fixed now by just raising it's item level sync so that all this shiny endgame 80 gear we're getting would help us in there. CT is so easy because the ilvl sync is so high that you're hilariously outgeared for it. Rabanastre is the same, it's a total joke now. Orbonne gives you very little cushion, and upping that would make a real difference without having to make drastic changes to the place.

I can't believe they're further incentitiving CT in 5.1 without fixing this. It's ridiculous.