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  1. #1
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
    Posts
    4,418
    Character
    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasrat View Post
    Because balancing. It starts getting a lot harder to tweak all the numbers when you've got more skills available while synced than you did when you were originally that level.

    A BLM synced to level 20 with level 20 skills only needs to be balanced around a level 20 BLM.

    A BLM synced to level 20 with level 80 skills, and now you've gotta figure out how to rebalance everything they have at 80 to be equivalent to what they would've had at 20.
    1) All skills would be normalized by synced down weapon damage

    2) Perhaps said BLM needs to learn a thing called aggro management. I have seen many who decided to skip that class (before the SB changes)
    (1)
    Veteran healers don't care if we need to heal, but right now we don't. We want interesting things to do during the downtime other than a 30s dot and a single filler spell that hasn't changed from lvl 4 to lvl 90.
    Dead DPS do no DPS. Raised DPS do 25/50% lower DPS. Do the mechanics and don't stand in bad stuff.
    Other games expect basic competence, FFXIV is pleasantly surprised by it. Other games have toxic elitism. FFXIV has toxic casualism.[/LIST]

  2. #2
    Player
    Hasrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    3,288
    Character
    Hashmael Lightswain
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptus View Post
    1) All skills would be normalized by synced down weapon damage

    2) Perhaps said BLM needs to learn a thing called aggro management. I have seen many who decided to skip that class (before the SB changes)
    Aggro is irrelevant in this example. I literally did not mention it once. No part of the "balancing" argument even considers aggro. Because that is the very last thing to worry about, when you stop to look at how it's not remotely as simple as you think it is to just "normalize" damage.

    More importantly, the whole point was an example. Pick any job you like. PLD needs balancing just the same, adjusting each step of the way to keep the synced 80 PLD on par with the actual 20 PLD (or gladiator at that point). The level 80 WHM needs balanced so that it's on par, heals and all, with the level 20 CNJ. (frankly, perhaps BLM was the worst example to pick with their lack of utility. BLM would probably be the simplest to balance in this way; any other job and you've got to start factoring in party buffs that those jobs are expected to maintain as well, further complicating the balancing act)

    Syncing down to any level while retaining all skills would require a monumental amount of work to maintain parity with players actually at those levels. The synced player would have to put in significantly more work just to match a mediocre new player. And if the synced player happens to be sub-optimal themselves, then they become little more than dead weight for the rest of the group.

    And, again, since I'm not really sure where you got the idea in the first place, aggro isn't remotely part of this argument I'm making.
    (7)

  3. #3
    Player
    PyurBlue's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    714
    Character
    Saphir Amariyo
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 40
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasrat View Post
    Syncing down to any level while retaining all skills would require a monumental amount of work to maintain parity with players actually at those levels. The synced player would have to put in significantly more work just to match a mediocre new player. And if the synced player happens to be sub-optimal themselves, then they become little more than dead weight for the rest of the group.
    Out of curiosity, have you ever tried to gear sync yourself? By which I mean going into low level content with outdated gear while out leveling it. It's pretty easy to balance an over leveled character to a dungeon in terms of DPS, provided gear can go low enough. We just need multiplier applied to DPS. The idea that it's something so complicated is at odds with the balance of the entire game through the leveling process which accounts for wild variation in effectiveness of different players already. The perfect THM will outDPS the perfect LNC in an AoE situation by 2, maybe 3 times as it is now. There is no precise balancing required, that's only for end game. The rough numbers for potency sync are already available to SE anyway since boss HP needs to scale with player progression.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
    Posts
    4,418
    Character
    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasrat View Post
    Aggro is irrelevant in this example. I literally did not mention it once. No part of the "balancing" argument even considers aggro. Because that is the very last thing to worry about, when you stop to look at how it's not remotely as simple as you think it is to just "normalize" damage.

    More importantly, the whole point was an example. Pick any job you like. PLD needs balancing just the same, adjusting each step of the way to keep the synced 80 PLD on par with the actual 20 PLD (or gladiator at that point). The level 80 WHM needs balanced so that it's on par, heals and all, with the level 20 CNJ. (frankly, perhaps BLM was the worst example to pick with their lack of utility. BLM would probably be the simplest to balance in this way; any other job and you've got to start factoring in party buffs that those jobs are expected to maintain as well, further complicating the balancing act)

    Syncing down to any level while retaining all skills would require a monumental amount of work to maintain parity with players actually at those levels. The synced player would have to put in significantly more work just to match a mediocre new player. And if the synced player happens to be sub-optimal themselves, then they become little more than dead weight for the rest of the group.

    And, again, since I'm not really sure where you got the idea in the first place, aggro isn't remotely part of this argument I'm making.
    Because aggro is the first thing that most level sync ability naysayers always go to.

    How will the level appropriate tank keep aggro on a lvl 80 BLM with all of their skills!
    (0)
    Veteran healers don't care if we need to heal, but right now we don't. We want interesting things to do during the downtime other than a 30s dot and a single filler spell that hasn't changed from lvl 4 to lvl 90.
    Dead DPS do no DPS. Raised DPS do 25/50% lower DPS. Do the mechanics and don't stand in bad stuff.
    Other games expect basic competence, FFXIV is pleasantly surprised by it. Other games have toxic elitism. FFXIV has toxic casualism.[/LIST]

  5. #5
    Player
    Valkyrie_Lenneth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    8,038
    Character
    Lynne Asteria
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptus View Post
    Because aggro is the first thing that most level sync ability naysayers always go to.

    How will the level appropriate tank keep aggro on a lvl 80 BLM with all of their skills!
    To be fair, that was before the tank changes in 5.0. I haven't seen anyone saying that since.
    (5)

  6. #6
    Player
    Noitems's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    New Gridania
    Posts
    926
    Character
    Noitems Ever
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth View Post
    To be fair, that was before the tank changes in 5.0. I haven't seen anyone saying that since.
    If a PLD and a BLM are both in Satasha and the BLM is chucking fouls/flares/freezes out like candy I think the damage alone will take over (even with it being synced) since that's so much more going out over the PLD's Total Eclipse.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player
    frostmagemari's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    579
    Character
    U'tabia Aisibhirwyn
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Noitems View Post
    If a PLD and a BLM are both in Satasha and the BLM is chucking fouls/flares/freezes out like candy I think the damage alone will take over (even with it being synced) since that's so much more going out over the PLD's Total Eclipse.
    I think the worst thing that can happen in this discussion is assume that changes like this would happen in a vacuum and its almost dishonest to argue from a point where further changes wouldn't happen in tandem with the requested change.
    (0)

  8. #8
    Player
    PyurBlue's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    714
    Character
    Saphir Amariyo
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 40
    Quote Originally Posted by Noitems View Post
    If a PLD and a BLM are both in Satasha and the BLM is chucking fouls/flares/freezes out like candy I think the damage alone will take over (even with it being synced) since that's so much more going out over the PLD's Total Eclipse.
    Try it. Go into a low level dungeon unsyced as a high level BLM with only a level 1 or so weapon. Then compare that to a synced PLD. The BLM is very easily going to lose once its stat drop enough.
    (0)
    Last edited by PyurBlue; 10-01-2019 at 05:07 AM.

  9. #9
    Player
    MariaArvana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    347
    Character
    Maria Rubrum
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Noitems View Post
    If a PLD and a BLM are both in Satasha and the BLM is chucking fouls/flares/freezes out like candy I think the damage alone will take over (even with it being synced) since that's so much more going out over the PLD's Total Eclipse.
    New tank stance is a 10x enmity modifier, making total eclipse a 1200 potency per GCD enmity battery. (Though factoring in tank damage penalties, its closer to 1000).

    Unless its a barely geared tank, enmity is pretty much a non-issue. The bigger issue is as described on the 1st page:

    Creating a system that:

    1) Creates parity between low level and high level players for literally every single instance of the game, balancing around literally every single trait and skill you earn up along the way against every other potential instance you can get into.
    2) Doesn't leave everyone weaker if they can't perfectly execute their rotation (normalizing potencies by targeting max level play)
    3) Doesn't leave people OP beyond belief. (normalizing potencies by targeting mid level play, creating a huge power vacuum between players who don't know their rotations vs ones who do and leaving the good players severely overpowered in old instances)
    4) can balance skills to still be used, but not rendered utterly useless. (Hallowed ground being OP to literally anything a low level GLD can do, Benediction/Tetra/Regens/Assylum annihilating anything a CNJ can do, etc.)

    While not impossible, it's going to be far too much effort for too little gain in the dev's eyes. Not to mention they'd then have to literally revamp the entire system any time substantial changes to jobs happen mid-expansion, or completely re-write and re-do the system when the new expansion comes out due to it completely changing roations, etc.

    From the times I've QA'd modular systems in other games and seeing the dead, lifeless eyes and frustrated groans of the devs there, I can pretty much guarantee the devs will stick with the syncing system they have to save themselves from a colossal nightmare inducing balancing headache.
    (3)
    Last edited by MariaArvana; 10-01-2019 at 04:31 AM.

  10. #10
    Player
    PyurBlue's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    714
    Character
    Saphir Amariyo
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 40
    Quote Originally Posted by MariaArvana View Post
    While not impossible, it's going to be far too much effort for too little gain in the dev's eyes. Not to mention they'd then have to literally revamp the entire system any time substantial changes to jobs happen mid-expansion, or completely re-write and re-do the system when the new expansion comes out due to it completely changing roations, etc.
    But the old content doesn't need rebalancing despite the issues that you mention already existing. PLD for example went from not having AoE to getting it by the first dungeon. It hasn't really cause any balancing upsets. You're applying really right standards to balancing when the game doesn't.

    From the times I've QA'd modular systems in other games and seeing the dead, lifeless eyes and frustrated groans of the devs there, I can pretty much guarantee the devs will stick with the syncing system they have to save themselves from a colossal nightmare inducing balancing headache.
    No one is really in a position to say how hard it would be to add potency scaling to the game, coding wise, except SE. It's not really fruitful to bring up, at least in my opinion. Conceptually though, there isn't actually much to it. FF14 has a level curve already. What we're missing is something to scale down high level players to fit the curve. The game doesn't change drastically from level 1 to 80. Fighting mobs at either end is pretty much the same except at high level mobs have scaled HP.
    (0)

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