Adding Stances

[Saefinn]

For me, I just liked being able to weave in and out. As you say, it was more definite with your intentions of what you're doing, and it's the risk that makes it hard, yet in some ways, if you're in the mindset of healing then you're healing, you're less likely to try and weave DPS spells. Meaning you'd Cleric if you were sure about it. I think if there were to add it back in, I think there would be some tweaks, maybe make it less clunky for some? Perhaps my saying "old cleric stance" was a bit misleading, because I'd rather healing drop and damage boost instead of swapping INT and MND around, what I meant of course was for it to be an actual stance rather than a temporary buff as it was in SB.

I guess for some Cleric Stance did feel it flowed so well or the risk was too great. But having fluidity on SCH now, I'm of the mind I'd rather clunky and fun than fluid and dull - not to say fluidity shouldn't be a goal, I just think "fun" is the priority. And the other issue was people forgetting to turn it off and now that we have job gauges, I wonder how much of a difference something strong and visual as a cue could make to that kind of problem.

I had kind of a similar experience with WoW dungeons. It was like there weren't any mechanics or anything; it was just:

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG!
<pokes head above rubble cautiously>
"...did we win?"

It's why I ended up liking FFXIV much better. Even in speed runs, the pace feels so much better and when you DF something, speed runs are rare. And now they're rarer because most dungeon design now is paced to avoid any 'true' kinda speed runs. But in WoW, it was rare to feel like I was experiencing the dungeon or really doing much. I mean, I guess it's where these two MMO's differ and I think it's fine, because I get people like the idea of a grind being super quick to maximise rewards. But there was a lot with WoW that didn't work for me and a lot of FFXIV that worked for me. I just hope the lines don't blur too much between the two MMO's, because I think XIV has great stuff to stand out from WoW. Job/class diversity was one of them.

I originally come from an FFXI background, so I downsized a lot of job complexity by migrating here, but I felt they had the balance right because FFXIV is not the same type of MMO as FFXI and the battles are paced very differently.

[Wawachume]

I think part of my problem could be my own neurological issues. I get the feeling my right brain works, not necessarily better, but much faster than the left. Which I know is true for everyone, but I mean the difference is bigger for me.

That could be why I find it easier to constantly switch between healing and DPS than to mode-switch between cleric and non-cleric stances---because the latter requires you to organize actions into a particular sequence, and linear thinking is the function of the left brain. (This is also why I'm worse at DPS than healing, because "rotation" is weird for me.)

That could also be why I found cleric stance stressful. I've never quite understood people who say they know when bosses are about to use particular abilities, because I feel like it's always a surprise to me. If you asked me when Boss A casts Ability B, I would have no idea. But actually, if they suddenly cast an unscheduled spell, I think I'd be shocked. So it's like I know, but not on a conscious level?

I think if they added back cleric stance, there's some chance I'd be constantly thinking, "This is so stressful; I have no idea when to use this ability, so I'm just doing it all randomly," while actually pressing the button at the right times. O.o

I think if there were to add it back in, I think there would be some tweaks, maybe make it less clunky for some? Perhaps my saying "old cleric stance" was a bit misleading, because I'd rather healing drop and damage boost instead of swapping INT and MND around, what I meant of course was for it to be an actual stance rather than a temporary buff as it was in SB.

Which would also make it less punishing DPS-wise not to use the stance, because they could control how big the damage/healing modifiers were instead of it just being "heal with 0 mind" or "DPS with 0 int".

[Rivinhal]

Which would also make it less punishing DPS-wise not to use the stance, because they could control how big the damage/healing modifiers were instead of it just being "heal with 0 mind" or "DPS with 0 int".

Exactly!

Cleric Stance could easily be reworked to be way less all-or-nothing, but to allow for more intricate play. It's all comes down to balancing it correctly...
You don't want it to be so powerful that's it's necessary to use, but you don't want it to be so weak that no one bothers with it.

There's a very fine line there, but I think it could be done. And I also believe it could help make the job that much more interesting.

[Verlyn]

I think it's safe to assume if Cleric Stance provides a dps advantage, it's going to be used in optimal raiding scenarios. There's really no way to have it boost your damage without becoming essentially 'required.'

That said, it isn't like dungeons are ever going to have dps checks so tight that healers will be forced to use such things either.

[Wawachume]

Exactly!

Cleric Stance could easily be reworked to be way less all-or-nothing, but to allow for more intricate play. It's all comes down to balancing it correctly...
You don't want it to be so powerful that's it's necessary to use, but you don't want it to be so weak that no one bothers with it.

There's a very fine line there, but I think it could be done. And I also believe it could help make the job that much more interesting.

If they managed to balance it right, I think that's a cleric stance I could live with. I mean, I'd still hate it, but it'd be like synastry or plenary indulgence---an ability I hate but can just ignore because it's not a big deal and I don't raid.

[Sloprano]

I had kind of a similar experience with WoW dungeons. It was like there weren't any mechanics or anything; it was just:

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG!
<pokes head above rubble cautiously>
"...did we win?"

I'm really curious, was this in on the later expansions? Because Shadowbringers is starting to feel a whole lot like Wrath of the Lich King for me, which is where I can pinpoint that game lost me. It was in the first dungeon, I was playing tank as I had for many years. As I always did before, started putting marks for sap, sheep, kill first, kill second etc. until on of the party members asked me what I was doing. "Marking for cc and kill order" I said. "No no", they replied, "just run in grab everthing and we'll aoe them down." And the catharsis was fun. At first, then it grew stale. It was no suspense nor tension in going into a dungeon, it was gather everything and burn it down, mobs barely posed a threat. Consequently it was also where the I found myself able to solo Elite mobs higher level than me as a Protection Warrior. I tried to just relish in doing damage, but it didn't grab me for long.

I think part of my problem could be my own neurological issues. I get the feeling my right brain works, not necessarily better, but much faster than the left. Which I know is true for everyone, but I mean the difference is bigger for me.

That could be why I find it easier to constantly switch between healing and DPS than to mode-switch between cleric and non-cleric stances---because the latter requires you to organize actions into a particular sequence, and linear thinking is the function of the left brain. (This is also why I'm worse at DPS than healing, because "rotation" is weird for me.)

I'm with you on the note that just the concept of rotation still feels like an alien concept. I dunno, it's always felt strange to me so I've gravitated towards the mmo classes and jobs that probably can be played optimally, but is instead utility, tools-focused with different kind of approach, preferably right at it's fingertips. Warrior in vanilla WOW above comes to mind, as did Scholar in 2.0 and 3.0 in FFXIV.

Since all of this game's mobs and bosses follow a hard script I just started to get a feel for when it was gonna use what, and planned mitigation accordinly. Just getting the feel for it made Cleric Stance another reactionary skill as I got more and more used to it. Back when I was deadly afraid of the doom Cleric Stance could bring I was still encouraged to just throw out a dot or two if found myself with nothing to do, as everything helps. Using CS just grew on me until it became second nature. Even then the frantic cases where someone took unexpected damage and I still had 3 seconds left on the cooldown at least livend up the samey dungeons.

Today it could be an actual role-skill choice to replace Repose and the Role Quests could be used to teach one about it. First added to bring some color back for when soloing as a healer, then starting to use it dungeons as you get more and more used to them. I can definitly see CS coming back without the Int-damage scaling again as a choice skills, not just part of some rotation.

[Wawachume]

I'm really curious, was this in on the later expansions? Because Shadowbringers is starting to feel a whole lot like Wrath of the Lich King for me, which is where I can pinpoint that game lost me.

I guess Legion. I started during the Firelands patch of Cataclysm, and played until just before BfA. But I didn't really do any group content until Legion.

Consequently it was also where the I found myself able to solo Elite mobs higher level than me as a Protection Warrior.

That part I don't mind so much. Soloing was always fun for me; I like to be able to find strategies to handle a situation on my own that's supposed to require a group.

Of course, it's very difficult to achieve that in a game, because encounters have to be very carefully balanced in order for them to be soloable, but not easily soloable, and it's hard to achieve that balance in light of differing player skill levels.

[Gemina]

Any kind of stance that involves a reduction to healing potency will never return. They got rid of that for a reason, and doing the same thing to tanks only goes to reinforce their decision to move in this direction. If there is to be any kind of stances for healers, it would likely involve preventing damage vs recovering from it. IOW shields and direct heals. However, a constraint is that some of what remains of what differentiates one healer from another is tied to those two healing archetypes. This along with SCH being the lock-in shielder has been a big problem with AST, which has lead to it and WHM leap frogging each other like anime rivals.

I don't think AST sects needs to go away, but I do think they should change what an AST does. I think current noct should pretty much be scrapped at this point, and should instead place a different effect on their cards. A mechanic the forces the AST to use both sects in battle I feel would be much more favorable to trying to give them the ability to choose which one. This just leads to staying in whichever stance is the most optimal. I believe AST could be really fun for a lot of players this way, but of course, not everyone would be on board.

As far as SCH and WHM go, I don't think they need any kind of stance switching. That type of gameplay could go a long way to giving a particular healer a unique playstyle which is what is desperately needed for them right now/

[AriaEnia]

I wish they reduce all the potency of all healings of all the healer classes so healing will be intense and healers will just do their roles, healing.

[Sloprano]

I guess Legion. I started during the Firelands patch of Cataclysm, and played until just before BfA. But I didn't really do any group content until Legion.


That part I don't mind so much. Soloing was always fun for me; I like to be able to find strategies to handle a situation on my own that's supposed to require a group.

Of course, it's very difficult to achieve that in a game, because encounters have to be very carefully balanced in order for them to be soloable, but not easily soloable, and it's hard to achieve that balance in light of differing player skill levels.

Want to think it is possible, and keep coming back to classes/jobs being designed for themselves first. So when you get to a point that's recommended to be done in a group, you could invaribly do it solo through patience and full use of your class' skillset. Was probably not designed to happen, but it would be the kind where the devs makes a class cool first, let them out in the world and then just sit back. It's how we got a Paladin soloing Lord Kazzak. That was hotfixed in 24 hours. So it went: Class was made of cool stuff, let loose in a game world and only when a class completely broke that world did the devs step in. FFXIV have been out long enough that it seems SE have stepped in so many times they are so far in the distance in front of us we can't see them, but they made huge deep tracks that are easy to follow but you have to no option than forward or back. 2.0-3.0 was the time they were still trying to get things right, but as they got better at it all the things I saw as flavor and nuisance to be worked around got the axe. "Not always useful? Can these be combined?"

Stances is just one of those things that it seems they found superflous. Now we don't need to be in a high-risk stance to deal more damage, but removed an entire dimension to the role without putting anything in it's place. For all I know this is the Prime version of the game for SE, what they intended it to be when they started all those years ago, or what all MMOs strive their balance to be.

Any kind of stance that involves a reduction to healing potency will never return. They got rid of that for a reason, and doing the same thing to tanks only goes to reinforce their decision to move in this direction. If there is to be any kind of stances for healers, it would likely involve preventing damage vs recovering from it. IOW shields and direct heals. However, a constraint is that some of what remains of what differentiates one healer from another is tied to those two healing archetypes. This along with SCH being the lock-in shielder has been a big problem with AST, which has lead to it and WHM leap frogging each other like anime rivals.

As far as SCH and WHM go, I don't think they need any kind of stance switching. That type of gameplay could go a long way to giving a particular healer a unique playstyle which is what is desperately needed for them right now/

I keep my hopes high in that regard until I see SE live stream removing the code and art for Cleric Stance (3.0) before doing git commit and git push on the altar of Balance. I would like it back in some capacity, maybe a bizzaro version: Healing stance: Increased healing from spells and abilities by 50% but reduces damage by 50%. And all our healing was initially cut in half so you want to be there as much as possible, only when soloing or when foolheardiness sets in do you want to leave it. We'll be like downsynced tanks forgetting Tank stance.

Been writing "Stance" so many times it's starting to lose meaning along with "fun" and "balance." We can go for something different: "Chaplain Stand." Getting back Chaplain Stand is what seems like the quickest way to give healers something more to do which I find the most pressing matter. Above all else, something entirely new and even better would be even more welcome. I can't say for the other jobs, but for Scholar I've read countless interesting ideas about making Stratagems on the fly then commiting them for gaining advantages or exploiting weakness, making Aetherflow and Fey Gauge work together instead of one powering the other so you'd start with 100 Fey gauge or a little dating mini-game with Lily to turn her into Eos or Selene and perform actions (and have more than two of the things.)

I wish they reduce all the potency of all healings of all the healer classes so healing will be intense and healers will just do their roles, healing.

If they did that and made every fight resemble the Mist Dragon in terms out damage dealt to the party and how much movement there is I'd be halfway on board with one foot. It would make the role more exciting (more healing, shielding and movement needed), but the Job would still be a one nuke/one dot/one aoe template which a stand would definitly liven up until they can get something more engaging in place. Because, despite everything, even as a Healer-assigned job, we still might end up doing quests alone, get a solo duty or find parts of a dungeon where no healing is needed but more damage would help and in that regard I'll soon have to swap out my "1" keyboard key relegated with Broil III for being worn out.