Adding Stances

[Saefinn]

Agreed, but at the very least no one wants to stay in a dungeon for an absurdly long time, correct?

Not for an absurdly long time, no. It's why some of us avoid Main Scenario roulettes, Castrum is not so bad, but Prae is very long. But at least had a guy on my Discord doing dumb voices for the characters when we decided to run one, which took the edge off a little bit. :P

[AphraelAmarantha]

So we agree that no one wants to be in a dungeon for too long a time.

However, in order to clear a dungeon in a reasonable time frame, I can assume that the fastest way to clear a dungeon is with good, optimal dps?

[LariaKirin]

"A 26 pages thread about healers who quit" isn't a lie. Did I say there are 26 pages worth of healers quitting? No, I said there's a 26 pages thread about healers quitting. And there is, in fact, a 26 pages thread about healers quitting.
Of course there's going to be people who post just to say no to the OP, just like in about every single opinion/complaint thread on this forum. I mean, some people said that 5.0 AST was fine...

Yes, you did say that. Unless "healers who quit" doesn't mean "healers who quit" anymore.

As for queues, remember when tanks were always in demand and had instant queues everywhere? If they no longer have the monopoly, it means the demand switched to another role. Maaaaaybe the role with the most controversial changes and least additions during this expansion?
And don't give me the "it's the start of an expansion" argument. I heard it one week after release, a month after release, two months after release, and today. Yet healers are still in demand a LOT more than in SB.

I see instant queues with a healer and no tank in the party. I see instant queues with a tank and no healer in the party. I also see short DPS queues when no healer is in the party, which implies that there are plenty of healers queuing.

It's called observation bias. You see what you want to see, not what is actually happening. The duty finder does not and can not give you an accurate picture of what is happening in general, only in the few samples a day when you actually queue. You simply do not have the information to say that the demand switched to healer.

The "start of an expansion" argument is very much valid. People play multiple jobs. The vast majority of players do not have everything at level 80 yet. The simple fact that there are only 3 healers means that as soon as a healer main levels them all to 80, they are extremely unlikely to ever queue for anything other than expert again. Do you do leveling roulette on your level 80 healer? Didn't think so.

[Rivinhal]

So we agree that no one wants to be in a dungeon for too long a time.

However, in order to clear a dungeon in a reasonable time frame, I can assume that the fastest way to clear a dungeon is with good, optimal dps?

Generally... But very few people are capable of fully optimizing their DPS.
In a casual setting, as long as you're trying your best, most people will be content. Optimization isn't really a concern.

[Acece]

So we agree that no one wants to be in a dungeon for too long a time.

However, in order to clear a dungeon in a reasonable time frame, I can assume that the fastest way to clear a dungeon is with good, optimal dps?

As long as you use holy like 4 times a pull you should be good, when i was first leveling whm (pre shb) no body actually got mad at me when I was doing sub optimal dps. If anything i got encourage to heal more because i would get more commendations that way.

Edit: Also to put in my input, i would love to have more things to manage as a whm. right now I've been playing less and less whm because I'm getting way to bored with it. I'd rather play ast even if it does less damage then my whm.

[Punslinger]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

There's a fairly wide middle ground between SMN's carpal-tunnel-inducing rotation and WHM/SCH/AST's "press 1 until the boss is dead."

[Saefinn]

So we agree that no one wants to be in a dungeon for too long a time.

However, in order to clear a dungeon in a reasonable time frame, I can assume that the fastest way to clear a dungeon is with good, optimal dps?

The fastest way, yes, but within a reasonable time frame? It doesn’t have to be the quickest. It only needs to be good enough to not take an unreasonable amount of time. As I mentioned, I’ve been in groups where I out DPS other jobs on DNC , this includes BLM’s, this isn’t optimal DPS and tank is not pulling wall to wall to get the most out of our DPS. But stuff still dies quickly enough. Bearing in mind DNC has the weakest DPS and BLM is capable of a lot more. I’m not even a top DPS DNC either.

Most groups I get in DF aren't that well optimised, but do well enough and keep the flow of the dungeon going. How long it takes is variable, something like AV will take longer than Wanderers Palace. The frustrating ones are where we keep dying, which can happen when tanks pull wall to wall and either they can’t do it well or the healer isn’t confident or geared enough. Or simply people dying to mechanics, bring way under geared (i’m Not a gear snob, but you need enough just to survive) and a whole plethora of reasons why people die. My friend left a dungeon the other day because the tank refused to stop pulling wall to wall when it kept wiping people. Her frustration wasn’t that the healer couldn’t keep up, it’s the tank wouldn’t slow down when it was clear wall to wall wasn’t going to work.

[Wawachume]

Designing classes so they can clear content as quickly as possible seems like a bad idea to me.

Personally, I don't care nearly as much about how long a dungeon takes as I do about how long it feels like the dungeon takes. I'd much rather spend half an hour playing a job I found interesting, than fifteen minutes spamming the same spell.

So if we make "fastest clears possible" our design goal...that sounds to me like an admission that the game is never going to be fun, and that the best we can hope for is to get our tomestones and get out. In which case, why even play?

[Saefinn]

Designing classes so they can clear content as quickly as possible seems like a bad idea to me.

Personally, I don't care nearly as much about how long a dungeon takes as I do about how long it feels like the dungeon takes. I'd much rather spend half an hour playing a job I found interesting, than fifteen minutes spamming the same spell.

So if we make "fastest clears possible" our design goal...that sounds to me like an admission that the game is never going to be fun, and that the best we can hope for is to get our tomestones and get out. In which case, why even play?

To add, one of the things that put me off when trying a number of dungeons in WoW, it felt there was no pacing and people would rush through so quickly I didn’t know what was going on. So it could go completely the other way where too fast is dull.

[Lodi]

Yes, you did say that. Unless "healers who quit" doesn't mean "healers who quit" anymore.



I see instant queues with a healer and no tank in the party. I see instant queues with a tank and no healer in the party. I also see short DPS queues when no healer is in the party, which implies that there are plenty of healers queuing.

It's called observation bias. You see what you want to see, not what is actually happening. The duty finder does not and can not give you an accurate picture of what is happening in general, only in the few samples a day when you actually queue. You simply do not have the information to say that the demand switched to healer.

The "start of an expansion" argument is very much valid. People play multiple jobs. The vast majority of players do not have everything at level 80 yet. The simple fact that there are only 3 healers means that as soon as a healer main levels them all to 80, they are extremely unlikely to ever queue for anything other than expert again. Do you do leveling roulette on your level 80 healer? Didn't think so.

There is a 26 pages thread on the topic of healers quitting the job. It's not 26 pages worth of negative feedback, but it is still a big thread about players who are tired of the current situation.

What you're telling me is like claiming there's no 21 pages RDM issues thread ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...is-the-outrage ) because not everybody agrees with the OP.

And again, where is the thread about tanks quitting because all tanks are identical? Where is the thread about dps quitting because all dps are identical? Nowhere, because no other role had it as rough as healers.


As for queues...
"You just see what you want to see"
"I see a lot of quick queues on every role"

Allow me to mmmmmmh for a moment, would you?

And tanks barely have anything more to level compared to healers, only one class that's already lvl 60. It's been three months, why is it not back to only tanks in demand yet?


You can't deny that the demand largely shifted from pretty much only tanks, to tanks and healers depending on the time of the day.

Players are a lot less interested in healers due to overly simplified kits (and straight up downgrades in certain cases) and no new healers for at least 6 years. And quitters all share the same thoughts: healers are boring.

If proportionally less players play healers, and they all cite the same reasons... maybe it means that their complaints are justified.