Adding Stances

[Lodi]

Portraying that thread as "26 pages and counting about healers who quit the job" is a lie. If you look at the first few pages you'll see that the majority of posts in at least the first few pages have NOT quit healer. I'm not going to check the entire thing, but it's absolutely not 26 pages of healers who quit healing.

You can make a case for giving healers more to do and you can argue about what is the best way to do it. But lying to make this case will not serve anyone.



Using queues as a metric is a joke. It's the start of an expansion and everyone is leveling everything. If you're a healer main with three healers at lvl 80, are you queuing into anything other than expert roulette every day as a healer? I don't think so. Every queue other than expert is designed for alt jobs, not your main job.

The queues do not tell you what you want them to tell you. If you want to use queues to support your argument, then please prove the causation.

"A 26 pages thread about healers who quit" isn't a lie. Did I say there are 26 pages worth of healers quitting? No, I said there's a 26 pages thread about healers quitting. And there is, in fact, a 26 pages thread about healers quitting.
Of course there's going to be people who post just to say no to the OP, just like in about every single opinion/complaint thread on this forum. I mean, some people said that 5.0 AST was fine...

Then again -and you conveniently ignored that part-, no other role has that.

You just used "the thread doesn't have 26 pages of people complaining therefore it's a lie" to ignore my entire argument: People are disappointed with the changes, and the lack of communication from SE.


As for queues, remember when tanks were always in demand and had instant queues everywhere? If they no longer have the monopoly, it means the demand switched to another role. Maaaaaybe the role with the most controversial changes and least additions during this expansion?
And don't give me the "it's the start of an expansion" argument. I heard it one week after release, a month after release, two months after release, and today. Yet healers are still in demand a LOT more than in SB.

[Billythepancake]

"A 26 pages thread about healers who quit" isn't a lie. Did I say there are 26 pages worth of healers quitting? No, I said there's a 26 pages thread about healers quitting. And there is, in fact, a 26 pages thread about healers quitting.
Of course there's going to be people who post just to say no to the OP, just like in about every single opinion/complaint thread on this forum. I mean, some people said that 5.0 AST was fine...

Then again -and you conveniently ignored that part-, no other role has that.

You just used "the thread doesn't have 26 pages of people complaining therefore it's a lie" to ignore my entire argument: People are disappointed with the changes, and the lack of communication from SE.


As for queues, remember when tanks were always in demand and had instant queues everywhere? If they no longer have the monopoly, it means the demand switched to another role. Maaaaaybe the role with the most controversial changes and least additions during this expansion?
And don't give me the "it's the start of an expansion" argument. I heard it one week after release, a month after release, two months after release, and today. Yet healers are still in demand a LOT more than in SB.

I'd also like to point out, the start of an expansion is when it will be at it's most popular, so unless the healers end up getting some amazing changes mid expansion, I cannot see their population sky rocketing, or even really growing all that much, from where it's at.

[AphraelAmarantha]

And that's okay.

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

[Billythepancake]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

I used to be a terrible WHM when I first started the game, and I never once got someone mad at me because I didnt play optimally. Maybe I just got lucky, such a thing is possible, but from what I've gathered in DF, nobody expects you to play optimally, they just expect basics. They might expect you to always be casting, or to not stand in the bad, or to do basic mechanics, and I fail to see why those expectations are a bad thing. Do I think every class needs to be complex to be fun? No. WHM could use a couple of things, maybe a more reliable weaving tool, giving fluid aura an actual use, and their aoe dot back. My issue is that they dragged EVERY healer down to that level, so now if you like complexity on your healer you have nowhere to go.

[Rivinhal]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

Frankly, this all sounds a bit selfish to me. "If I don't like it, and I can't play it optimally, it shouldn't exist!"

Why couldn't you "play the game or experience the story with your characters" exactly? You realize that if they re-added stance dancing, that you wouldn't have to do it, right?

Right now I see two sides:
With less complex classes we have a group of people who are clearly bored and even quitting.
With more optionally complex classes we would have people who suddenly "can't play optimally" and are upset about that for some reason, despite being casual players.
But only one of those situations is optional. I can't choose not be "not bored" anymore. You could choose to just ignore CS if it were re-implemented.

What baffles me most of all is that everything that people have proposed so far has been optional mechanics that high level players could use to take their play further.
If people were proposing baked-in redesigns that over-complicated the class at a base level and truly hampered your ability to play, I'd be right along side you decrying those propositions as a bad idea. But that's not what's happened.

I swear, I'm not even trying to be mean here. I just don't understand your concern.

[Saefinn]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun.

I've come across WHM's who're really unhappy with the job right now and just aren't having fun anymore and some here have stated they are tired of complaining and not being listened to.

But what's wrong with some room for compromise? I mean, nobody here wants you to stop having fun either. If a Cleric Stance or some variation of (or another stance altogether) were introduced to keep the other population of players happy and the rest of the job remained as is (as my OP makes no suggestion of changing any of the job's core design what-so-ever, other that maybe 1 or 2 more DPS spells back), you could continue to play the job exactly as you do.

And those who actually have the attitude you're describing are in the minority. Like I said, when Cleric Stance was a thing and this was back when I was less of a casual player and raiding (back in ARR). If people didn't use Cleric Stance, not many cared. Though I know there's more DPS checks out there these days, but people who're most likely to say anything would be doing stuff like Extremes and Savage. And that's not really casual content anyway.

Having played the game for years, it's not often I witnessesed people take crap for playing suboptimally. Generally I say sod those with poor attitudes. And said people will pick people up for anything that's "sub optimal". I mean, we still have a similar situation with healers who don't DPS, most aren't going to care in most of the game's content, even if it's playing the job sub-optimally.

And taking Billy's point, I started out as a suboptimal AST who'd often forget their cards, or accidentally give it to the wrong people and I wasn't goot at healing with it either. And I still forget and I still misfire cards, hey, I'm human.

Heck, I mostly play in Nocturnal Sect on it, despite it being the least efficient sect with no benefit over Di beyond a "WHM/AST" or "AST/AST" setup, but it's the one I'm enjoying the most and it's not like I'm going into Savage with it. It's also kinda the what led me to my AST suggestion of not bringing Noct in line with Di because Noct is harder to play/maintain. If I Diurnal, I could probably DPS more and contribute better.

[AphraelAmarantha]

Okay, I am going to try a very long winded way here to see if people can actually get what my problem is here because as usual, no one gets it; so I am going to change how I am presenting my argument.

The majority of people that play this game or at least here on the forums want to clear dungeons as fast as possible, correct?

[Billythepancake]

Okay, I am going to try a very long winded way here to see if people can actually get what my problem is here because as usual, no one gets it; so I am going to change how I am presenting my argument.

The majority of people that play this game or at least here on the forums want to clear dungeons as fast as possible, correct?

For the most part, I just want to do it at a decent pace, not super duper FAST GOTTA ZOOM, but so long as you're doing something, I find most people will not get upset at you. I never see anyone get upset at me when I queue up as a MCH and hold onto drill for 20 seconds.

[Saefinn]

Okay, I am going to try a very long winded way here to see if people can actually get what my problem is here because as usual, no one gets it; so I am going to change how I am presenting my argument.

The majority of people that play this game or at least here on the forums want to clear dungeons as fast as possible, correct?

In my experience, if we're talking majority? I'd say, not as fast as possible, no. But they just don't want to do it at an awfully slow pace or for there to be too many wipes.

My backup for this is: the majority of dungeons I've queued for, people aren't going as fast as possible. With fewer tanks who pull wall-to-wall, fewer healers that go all out on the DPS and dungeons where I might be doing the most DPS as a DNC (which has the lowest DPS in the game). Sure I'll try to do my best, but for all I know, the next guy could be doing his best.

And when I've tanked, not all healers have been capable of handling wall-to-wall, so I just gauge my pulls on player ability.

[AphraelAmarantha]

Agreed, but at the very least no one wants to stay in a dungeon for an absurdly long time, correct?