Adding Stances

[Rivinhal]

If stance dancing returned to whm, I would drop whm real quick. We don’t need complexity, it’s fine where it’s at.

I feel like the majority of players on this site don’t want casuals playing this game. Let’s make the classes harder to play! Let’s add a rotation! Let’s add stance dancing! Let’s add some stupid bs where suddenly casual players can no longer play. But mah engagement to the game! I’m already engaged just trying to keep people alive. Maybe all you people who think the game is a snooze fest should go play a way harder game instead of making it unfriendly to noobs and casuals. SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

"Why go backwards?"

This sort of destructive egalitarian mindset doesn't fix things. It only serves to alienate players and divide the community further.
Just ask WoW how this same class simplification worked out for them...

The reality is that it's okay that noobs and casual players don't play at a top-tier level. No one should expect them to. Heck, I'd consider myself a casual player...
But the complexity of play shouldn't be simplified and handicapped simply because some noobs and casuals (for whatever reason) aren't capable of performing optional mechanics intended to add to the job's complexity/depth.
If you're unable to play a job optimally, then you shouldn't expect the job to be handicapped, and for everyone else to be brought down to your level. You should expect to play sub-optimally.

And that's okay. It's okay to be a casual player. It's okay to not play perfect all the time. It's okay to not use every tool in your kit.

But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be allowed access to those tools.

[AphraelAmarantha]

And that's okay.

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

[Billythepancake]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

I used to be a terrible WHM when I first started the game, and I never once got someone mad at me because I didnt play optimally. Maybe I just got lucky, such a thing is possible, but from what I've gathered in DF, nobody expects you to play optimally, they just expect basics. They might expect you to always be casting, or to not stand in the bad, or to do basic mechanics, and I fail to see why those expectations are a bad thing. Do I think every class needs to be complex to be fun? No. WHM could use a couple of things, maybe a more reliable weaving tool, giving fluid aura an actual use, and their aoe dot back. My issue is that they dragged EVERY healer down to that level, so now if you like complexity on your healer you have nowhere to go.

[Rivinhal]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

Frankly, this all sounds a bit selfish to me. "If I don't like it, and I can't play it optimally, it shouldn't exist!"

Why couldn't you "play the game or experience the story with your characters" exactly? You realize that if they re-added stance dancing, that you wouldn't have to do it, right?

Right now I see two sides:
With less complex classes we have a group of people who are clearly bored and even quitting.
With more optionally complex classes we would have people who suddenly "can't play optimally" and are upset about that for some reason, despite being casual players.
But only one of those situations is optional. I can't choose not be "not bored" anymore. You could choose to just ignore CS if it were re-implemented.

What baffles me most of all is that everything that people have proposed so far has been optional mechanics that high level players could use to take their play further.
If people were proposing baked-in redesigns that over-complicated the class at a base level and truly hampered your ability to play, I'd be right along side you decrying those propositions as a bad idea. But that's not what's happened.

I swear, I'm not even trying to be mean here. I just don't understand your concern.

[Saefinn]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun.

I've come across WHM's who're really unhappy with the job right now and just aren't having fun anymore and some here have stated they are tired of complaining and not being listened to.

But what's wrong with some room for compromise? I mean, nobody here wants you to stop having fun either. If a Cleric Stance or some variation of (or another stance altogether) were introduced to keep the other population of players happy and the rest of the job remained as is (as my OP makes no suggestion of changing any of the job's core design what-so-ever, other that maybe 1 or 2 more DPS spells back), you could continue to play the job exactly as you do.

And those who actually have the attitude you're describing are in the minority. Like I said, when Cleric Stance was a thing and this was back when I was less of a casual player and raiding (back in ARR). If people didn't use Cleric Stance, not many cared. Though I know there's more DPS checks out there these days, but people who're most likely to say anything would be doing stuff like Extremes and Savage. And that's not really casual content anyway.

Having played the game for years, it's not often I witnessesed people take crap for playing suboptimally. Generally I say sod those with poor attitudes. And said people will pick people up for anything that's "sub optimal". I mean, we still have a similar situation with healers who don't DPS, most aren't going to care in most of the game's content, even if it's playing the job sub-optimally.

And taking Billy's point, I started out as a suboptimal AST who'd often forget their cards, or accidentally give it to the wrong people and I wasn't goot at healing with it either. And I still forget and I still misfire cards, hey, I'm human.

Heck, I mostly play in Nocturnal Sect on it, despite it being the least efficient sect with no benefit over Di beyond a "WHM/AST" or "AST/AST" setup, but it's the one I'm enjoying the most and it's not like I'm going into Savage with it. It's also kinda the what led me to my AST suggestion of not bringing Noct in line with Di because Noct is harder to play/maintain. If I Diurnal, I could probably DPS more and contribute better.

[Punslinger]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

There's a fairly wide middle ground between SMN's carpal-tunnel-inducing rotation and WHM/SCH/AST's "press 1 until the boss is dead."