Adding Stances

[AphraelAmarantha]

If stance dancing returned to whm, I would drop whm real quick. We don’t need complexity, it’s fine where it’s at.

I feel like the majority of players on this site don’t want casuals playing this game. Let’s make the classes harder to play! Let’s add a rotation! Let’s add stance dancing! Let’s add some stupid bs where suddenly casual players can no longer play. But mah engagement to the game! I’m already engaged just trying to keep people alive. Maybe all you people who think the game is a snooze fest should go play a way harder game instead of making it unfriendly to noobs and casuals. SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

[Lodi]

If stance dancing returned to whm, I would drop whm real quick. We don’t need complexity, it’s fine where it’s at.

I feel like the majority of players on this site don’t want casuals playing this game. Let’s make the classes harder to play! Let’s add a rotation! Let’s add stance dancing! Let’s add some stupid bs where suddenly casual players can no longer play. But mah engagement to the game! I’m already engaged just trying to keep people alive. Maybe all you people who think the game is a snooze fest should go play a way harder game instead of making it unfriendly to noobs and casuals. SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

I see you enjoy using one button during 70% of your time, that's great for you! Because not everybody does. Friendly reminder that healers were a lot more complex until now, and people played them just fine.

There's a *small* (26 pages and counting) thread about healers on various levels who quit the job for the same reason: it's too easy and boring compared to the earlier expansions. No other role has that. Absolutely no other role has that.

Oh, and if you tell me "it's just a thread on the internet, it doesn't represent the healer community", look at the healer queues. They're instant pretty much all day. Tells you a lot about how loved the healer changes are, eh?

[LariaKirin]

There's a *small* (26 pages and counting) thread about healers on various levels who quit the job for the same reason: it's too easy and boring compared to the earlier expansions. No other role has that. Absolutely no other role has that.

Portraying that thread as "26 pages and counting about healers who quit the job" is a lie. If you look at the first few pages you'll see that the majority of posts in at least the first few pages have NOT quit healer. I'm not going to check the entire thing, but it's absolutely not 26 pages of healers who quit healing.

You can make a case for giving healers more to do and you can argue about what is the best way to do it. But lying to make this case will not serve anyone.

Oh, and if you tell me "it's just a thread on the internet, it doesn't represent the healer community", look at the healer queues. They're instant pretty much all day. Tells you a lot about how loved the healer changes are, eh?

Using queues as a metric is a joke. It's the start of an expansion and everyone is leveling everything. If you're a healer main with three healers at lvl 80, are you queuing into anything other than expert roulette every day as a healer? I don't think so. Every queue other than expert is designed for alt jobs, not your main job.

The queues do not tell you what you want them to tell you. If you want to use queues to support your argument, then please prove the causation.

[Lodi]

Portraying that thread as "26 pages and counting about healers who quit the job" is a lie. If you look at the first few pages you'll see that the majority of posts in at least the first few pages have NOT quit healer. I'm not going to check the entire thing, but it's absolutely not 26 pages of healers who quit healing.

You can make a case for giving healers more to do and you can argue about what is the best way to do it. But lying to make this case will not serve anyone.



Using queues as a metric is a joke. It's the start of an expansion and everyone is leveling everything. If you're a healer main with three healers at lvl 80, are you queuing into anything other than expert roulette every day as a healer? I don't think so. Every queue other than expert is designed for alt jobs, not your main job.

The queues do not tell you what you want them to tell you. If you want to use queues to support your argument, then please prove the causation.

"A 26 pages thread about healers who quit" isn't a lie. Did I say there are 26 pages worth of healers quitting? No, I said there's a 26 pages thread about healers quitting. And there is, in fact, a 26 pages thread about healers quitting.
Of course there's going to be people who post just to say no to the OP, just like in about every single opinion/complaint thread on this forum. I mean, some people said that 5.0 AST was fine...

Then again -and you conveniently ignored that part-, no other role has that.

You just used "the thread doesn't have 26 pages of people complaining therefore it's a lie" to ignore my entire argument: People are disappointed with the changes, and the lack of communication from SE.


As for queues, remember when tanks were always in demand and had instant queues everywhere? If they no longer have the monopoly, it means the demand switched to another role. Maaaaaybe the role with the most controversial changes and least additions during this expansion?
And don't give me the "it's the start of an expansion" argument. I heard it one week after release, a month after release, two months after release, and today. Yet healers are still in demand a LOT more than in SB.

[Billythepancake]

"A 26 pages thread about healers who quit" isn't a lie. Did I say there are 26 pages worth of healers quitting? No, I said there's a 26 pages thread about healers quitting. And there is, in fact, a 26 pages thread about healers quitting.
Of course there's going to be people who post just to say no to the OP, just like in about every single opinion/complaint thread on this forum. I mean, some people said that 5.0 AST was fine...

Then again -and you conveniently ignored that part-, no other role has that.

You just used "the thread doesn't have 26 pages of people complaining therefore it's a lie" to ignore my entire argument: People are disappointed with the changes, and the lack of communication from SE.


As for queues, remember when tanks were always in demand and had instant queues everywhere? If they no longer have the monopoly, it means the demand switched to another role. Maaaaaybe the role with the most controversial changes and least additions during this expansion?
And don't give me the "it's the start of an expansion" argument. I heard it one week after release, a month after release, two months after release, and today. Yet healers are still in demand a LOT more than in SB.

I'd also like to point out, the start of an expansion is when it will be at it's most popular, so unless the healers end up getting some amazing changes mid expansion, I cannot see their population sky rocketing, or even really growing all that much, from where it's at.

[LariaKirin]

"A 26 pages thread about healers who quit" isn't a lie. Did I say there are 26 pages worth of healers quitting? No, I said there's a 26 pages thread about healers quitting. And there is, in fact, a 26 pages thread about healers quitting.
Of course there's going to be people who post just to say no to the OP, just like in about every single opinion/complaint thread on this forum. I mean, some people said that 5.0 AST was fine...

Yes, you did say that. Unless "healers who quit" doesn't mean "healers who quit" anymore.

As for queues, remember when tanks were always in demand and had instant queues everywhere? If they no longer have the monopoly, it means the demand switched to another role. Maaaaaybe the role with the most controversial changes and least additions during this expansion?
And don't give me the "it's the start of an expansion" argument. I heard it one week after release, a month after release, two months after release, and today. Yet healers are still in demand a LOT more than in SB.

I see instant queues with a healer and no tank in the party. I see instant queues with a tank and no healer in the party. I also see short DPS queues when no healer is in the party, which implies that there are plenty of healers queuing.

It's called observation bias. You see what you want to see, not what is actually happening. The duty finder does not and can not give you an accurate picture of what is happening in general, only in the few samples a day when you actually queue. You simply do not have the information to say that the demand switched to healer.

The "start of an expansion" argument is very much valid. People play multiple jobs. The vast majority of players do not have everything at level 80 yet. The simple fact that there are only 3 healers means that as soon as a healer main levels them all to 80, they are extremely unlikely to ever queue for anything other than expert again. Do you do leveling roulette on your level 80 healer? Didn't think so.

[Lodi]

Yes, you did say that. Unless "healers who quit" doesn't mean "healers who quit" anymore.



I see instant queues with a healer and no tank in the party. I see instant queues with a tank and no healer in the party. I also see short DPS queues when no healer is in the party, which implies that there are plenty of healers queuing.

It's called observation bias. You see what you want to see, not what is actually happening. The duty finder does not and can not give you an accurate picture of what is happening in general, only in the few samples a day when you actually queue. You simply do not have the information to say that the demand switched to healer.

The "start of an expansion" argument is very much valid. People play multiple jobs. The vast majority of players do not have everything at level 80 yet. The simple fact that there are only 3 healers means that as soon as a healer main levels them all to 80, they are extremely unlikely to ever queue for anything other than expert again. Do you do leveling roulette on your level 80 healer? Didn't think so.

There is a 26 pages thread on the topic of healers quitting the job. It's not 26 pages worth of negative feedback, but it is still a big thread about players who are tired of the current situation.

What you're telling me is like claiming there's no 21 pages RDM issues thread ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...is-the-outrage ) because not everybody agrees with the OP.

And again, where is the thread about tanks quitting because all tanks are identical? Where is the thread about dps quitting because all dps are identical? Nowhere, because no other role had it as rough as healers.


As for queues...
"You just see what you want to see"
"I see a lot of quick queues on every role"

Allow me to mmmmmmh for a moment, would you?

And tanks barely have anything more to level compared to healers, only one class that's already lvl 60. It's been three months, why is it not back to only tanks in demand yet?


You can't deny that the demand largely shifted from pretty much only tanks, to tanks and healers depending on the time of the day.

Players are a lot less interested in healers due to overly simplified kits (and straight up downgrades in certain cases) and no new healers for at least 6 years. And quitters all share the same thoughts: healers are boring.

If proportionally less players play healers, and they all cite the same reasons... maybe it means that their complaints are justified.

[Duskane]

And tanks barely have anything more to level compared to healers, only one class that's already lvl 60. It's been three months, why is it not back to only tanks in demand yet?
.

this is not even a real estimate on "healer drought"
especially when it changes so frequently between healer,tank and even DPS in need for alliance and expert
all my roulette right now are Tank besides ones i mentioned which are dps

[LariaKirin]

There is a 26 pages thread on the topic of healers quitting the job. It's not 26 pages worth of negative feedback, but it is still a big thread about players who are tired of the current situation.

What you're telling me is like claiming there's no 21 pages RDM issues thread ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...is-the-outrage ) because not everybody agrees with the OP.

Has nothing to do with the RDM thread. I'm not telling you it doesn't exist. I'm calling out your portrayal of what that thread really is. It's not "healers who quit", so thanks for correcting your statement.

As for queues...
"You just see what you want to see"
"I see a lot of quick queues on every role"

Allow me to mmmmmmh for a moment, would you?

It seems you're unable to comprehend my point and chose to simply take two statements out of context because reasons. The only point of listing several things I see is to tell you that queues fluctuate. Yet you choose to only observe the instant healer queues, because of bias. I will never use queues to make an argument in regards to role numbers, because this is my stance on the duty finder: "The duty finder does not and can not give you an accurate picture of what is happening in general"

And tanks barely have anything more to level compared to healers, only one class that's already lvl 60. It's been three months, why is it not back to only tanks in demand yet?

You can't deny that the demand largely shifted from pretty much only tanks, to tanks and healers depending on the time of the day.

Players are a lot less interested in healers due to overly simplified kits (and straight up downgrades in certain cases) and no new healers for at least 6 years. And quitters all share the same thoughts: healers are boring.

If proportionally less players play healers, and they all cite the same reasons... maybe it means that their complaints are justified.

I can absolutely deny it and I do not accept your premise that it's ever been only tanks in demand. If you want to make the case that there are proportionally less healers now as compared to SB, then you'll have to provide some numbers. Your memory of how it was in SB and what your bias observes about the queues is not good enough.

[AmeliaVerves]

SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

tbf the changes were made to reduce the skill gap between very good und (below)average players at the end of HW. But just as most ppl predicted, nothing changed and the gaps are just as big as they have always been. So it actually can be a simple conclusion to go back to old CS because removing it made no difference at all in the greater scheme.

I, personally, don't see it happening, bc most players wouldn't be able to handle old CS, but I'd welcome some softer sort of variation of HW CS coming back honestly.