Adding Stances

[Lodi]

If stance dancing returned to whm, I would drop whm real quick. We don’t need complexity, it’s fine where it’s at.

I feel like the majority of players on this site don’t want casuals playing this game. Let’s make the classes harder to play! Let’s add a rotation! Let’s add stance dancing! Let’s add some stupid bs where suddenly casual players can no longer play. But mah engagement to the game! I’m already engaged just trying to keep people alive. Maybe all you people who think the game is a snooze fest should go play a way harder game instead of making it unfriendly to noobs and casuals. SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

I see you enjoy using one button during 70% of your time, that's great for you! Because not everybody does. Friendly reminder that healers were a lot more complex until now, and people played them just fine.

There's a *small* (26 pages and counting) thread about healers on various levels who quit the job for the same reason: it's too easy and boring compared to the earlier expansions. No other role has that. Absolutely no other role has that.

Oh, and if you tell me "it's just a thread on the internet, it doesn't represent the healer community", look at the healer queues. They're instant pretty much all day. Tells you a lot about how loved the healer changes are, eh?

[LariaKirin]

There's a *small* (26 pages and counting) thread about healers on various levels who quit the job for the same reason: it's too easy and boring compared to the earlier expansions. No other role has that. Absolutely no other role has that.

Portraying that thread as "26 pages and counting about healers who quit the job" is a lie. If you look at the first few pages you'll see that the majority of posts in at least the first few pages have NOT quit healer. I'm not going to check the entire thing, but it's absolutely not 26 pages of healers who quit healing.

You can make a case for giving healers more to do and you can argue about what is the best way to do it. But lying to make this case will not serve anyone.

Oh, and if you tell me "it's just a thread on the internet, it doesn't represent the healer community", look at the healer queues. They're instant pretty much all day. Tells you a lot about how loved the healer changes are, eh?

Using queues as a metric is a joke. It's the start of an expansion and everyone is leveling everything. If you're a healer main with three healers at lvl 80, are you queuing into anything other than expert roulette every day as a healer? I don't think so. Every queue other than expert is designed for alt jobs, not your main job.

The queues do not tell you what you want them to tell you. If you want to use queues to support your argument, then please prove the causation.

[Lodi]

Portraying that thread as "26 pages and counting about healers who quit the job" is a lie. If you look at the first few pages you'll see that the majority of posts in at least the first few pages have NOT quit healer. I'm not going to check the entire thing, but it's absolutely not 26 pages of healers who quit healing.

You can make a case for giving healers more to do and you can argue about what is the best way to do it. But lying to make this case will not serve anyone.



Using queues as a metric is a joke. It's the start of an expansion and everyone is leveling everything. If you're a healer main with three healers at lvl 80, are you queuing into anything other than expert roulette every day as a healer? I don't think so. Every queue other than expert is designed for alt jobs, not your main job.

The queues do not tell you what you want them to tell you. If you want to use queues to support your argument, then please prove the causation.

"A 26 pages thread about healers who quit" isn't a lie. Did I say there are 26 pages worth of healers quitting? No, I said there's a 26 pages thread about healers quitting. And there is, in fact, a 26 pages thread about healers quitting.
Of course there's going to be people who post just to say no to the OP, just like in about every single opinion/complaint thread on this forum. I mean, some people said that 5.0 AST was fine...

Then again -and you conveniently ignored that part-, no other role has that.

You just used "the thread doesn't have 26 pages of people complaining therefore it's a lie" to ignore my entire argument: People are disappointed with the changes, and the lack of communication from SE.


As for queues, remember when tanks were always in demand and had instant queues everywhere? If they no longer have the monopoly, it means the demand switched to another role. Maaaaaybe the role with the most controversial changes and least additions during this expansion?
And don't give me the "it's the start of an expansion" argument. I heard it one week after release, a month after release, two months after release, and today. Yet healers are still in demand a LOT more than in SB.

[Billythepancake]

"A 26 pages thread about healers who quit" isn't a lie. Did I say there are 26 pages worth of healers quitting? No, I said there's a 26 pages thread about healers quitting. And there is, in fact, a 26 pages thread about healers quitting.
Of course there's going to be people who post just to say no to the OP, just like in about every single opinion/complaint thread on this forum. I mean, some people said that 5.0 AST was fine...

Then again -and you conveniently ignored that part-, no other role has that.

You just used "the thread doesn't have 26 pages of people complaining therefore it's a lie" to ignore my entire argument: People are disappointed with the changes, and the lack of communication from SE.


As for queues, remember when tanks were always in demand and had instant queues everywhere? If they no longer have the monopoly, it means the demand switched to another role. Maaaaaybe the role with the most controversial changes and least additions during this expansion?
And don't give me the "it's the start of an expansion" argument. I heard it one week after release, a month after release, two months after release, and today. Yet healers are still in demand a LOT more than in SB.

I'd also like to point out, the start of an expansion is when it will be at it's most popular, so unless the healers end up getting some amazing changes mid expansion, I cannot see their population sky rocketing, or even really growing all that much, from where it's at.

[LariaKirin]

"A 26 pages thread about healers who quit" isn't a lie. Did I say there are 26 pages worth of healers quitting? No, I said there's a 26 pages thread about healers quitting. And there is, in fact, a 26 pages thread about healers quitting.
Of course there's going to be people who post just to say no to the OP, just like in about every single opinion/complaint thread on this forum. I mean, some people said that 5.0 AST was fine...

Yes, you did say that. Unless "healers who quit" doesn't mean "healers who quit" anymore.

As for queues, remember when tanks were always in demand and had instant queues everywhere? If they no longer have the monopoly, it means the demand switched to another role. Maaaaaybe the role with the most controversial changes and least additions during this expansion?
And don't give me the "it's the start of an expansion" argument. I heard it one week after release, a month after release, two months after release, and today. Yet healers are still in demand a LOT more than in SB.

I see instant queues with a healer and no tank in the party. I see instant queues with a tank and no healer in the party. I also see short DPS queues when no healer is in the party, which implies that there are plenty of healers queuing.

It's called observation bias. You see what you want to see, not what is actually happening. The duty finder does not and can not give you an accurate picture of what is happening in general, only in the few samples a day when you actually queue. You simply do not have the information to say that the demand switched to healer.

The "start of an expansion" argument is very much valid. People play multiple jobs. The vast majority of players do not have everything at level 80 yet. The simple fact that there are only 3 healers means that as soon as a healer main levels them all to 80, they are extremely unlikely to ever queue for anything other than expert again. Do you do leveling roulette on your level 80 healer? Didn't think so.

[AmeliaVerves]

SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

tbf the changes were made to reduce the skill gap between very good und (below)average players at the end of HW. But just as most ppl predicted, nothing changed and the gaps are just as big as they have always been. So it actually can be a simple conclusion to go back to old CS because removing it made no difference at all in the greater scheme.

I, personally, don't see it happening, bc most players wouldn't be able to handle old CS, but I'd welcome some softer sort of variation of HW CS coming back honestly.

[Irenia]

The only thing about old Cleric is that it introduced Savage-level punishment into content that isn't Savage-level.

I don't see old Cleric coming back unless old Tank Stances do, too.

[Rivinhal]

If stance dancing returned to whm, I would drop whm real quick. We don’t need complexity, it’s fine where it’s at.

I feel like the majority of players on this site don’t want casuals playing this game. Let’s make the classes harder to play! Let’s add a rotation! Let’s add stance dancing! Let’s add some stupid bs where suddenly casual players can no longer play. But mah engagement to the game! I’m already engaged just trying to keep people alive. Maybe all you people who think the game is a snooze fest should go play a way harder game instead of making it unfriendly to noobs and casuals. SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

"Why go backwards?"

This sort of destructive egalitarian mindset doesn't fix things. It only serves to alienate players and divide the community further.
Just ask WoW how this same class simplification worked out for them...

The reality is that it's okay that noobs and casual players don't play at a top-tier level. No one should expect them to. Heck, I'd consider myself a casual player...
But the complexity of play shouldn't be simplified and handicapped simply because some noobs and casuals (for whatever reason) aren't capable of performing optional mechanics intended to add to the job's complexity/depth.
If you're unable to play a job optimally, then you shouldn't expect the job to be handicapped, and for everyone else to be brought down to your level. You should expect to play sub-optimally.

And that's okay. It's okay to be a casual player. It's okay to not play perfect all the time. It's okay to not use every tool in your kit.

But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be allowed access to those tools.

[AphraelAmarantha]

And that's okay.

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

[Billythepancake]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

I used to be a terrible WHM when I first started the game, and I never once got someone mad at me because I didnt play optimally. Maybe I just got lucky, such a thing is possible, but from what I've gathered in DF, nobody expects you to play optimally, they just expect basics. They might expect you to always be casting, or to not stand in the bad, or to do basic mechanics, and I fail to see why those expectations are a bad thing. Do I think every class needs to be complex to be fun? No. WHM could use a couple of things, maybe a more reliable weaving tool, giving fluid aura an actual use, and their aoe dot back. My issue is that they dragged EVERY healer down to that level, so now if you like complexity on your healer you have nowhere to go.