For AST changes, just potency buff malefic and combust...

[FusionSamurai]

Raid balance is definitely where most of the attention should focus, not because it's more important, but because it's more finicky. Outside of raids, a difference of 3% or whatever in something---that is, a difference that's only perceptible when you analyze a computer log---doesn't matter much.

That's literally my point. Damage is entirely irrelevant outside of raids. If a class doesn't do much damage, it only matters when trying to do raid content.

You also have to take varying skill levels into account. Non-raid balance may not matter to raiders, because they think dungeons are easy enough that any class can do them. But us dungeon players...maybe you haven't heard, but, uh, sometimes we kind of suck. The extra healing and damage from WHM can make a difference for us. D:

You know, at least you admit you suck. There are so many players who play badly in dungeon content who don't know or wont admit they are doing badly. Props to you, good sir. Raids are what really matters though. If you buff for dungeons it can throw balance off in raids, where it really matters. Imagine them buffing Afflatus Misery to 1,500 potency because WHMs felt they weren't doing enough damage in dungeons. (Would never happen, role with me here.). That would absolutely break WHM in raids, to the point that it would be optimal to just spam lily abilities and misery as much as humanly possible. WHM damage would be stupid high. They have to balance around that first.

But ultimately, I think the real problem here is that pDPS is just really hard to balance against rDPS in a game with variable party sizes. As the number of players in your party increases from 1 to 4 to 8 to 24, the relative value of rDPS is going to increase also. I only see three potential solutions to this.

They are all very close and comparable right now. AST will outscale WHM probably next tier, and will be a bit better in the third tier this expansion.

1. Give WHM some kind of rDPS buff.

WHM damage is already stupid high. They don't need any kind of buff.

2. Make AST cards not affect damage, and delete chain stratagem.

Then there is 0 reason for cards to eixist.

3. Come up with some way for AST and SCH rDPS buffs to scale negatively based on party size, such that they're comparable to WHM's pDPS contribution regardless of party size.

that is a lot of developer time and resources for something that doesn't matter.

[Wawachume]

Raids are what really matters though. If you buff for dungeons it can throw balance off in raids, where it really matters.

I'm not exactly sure what people mean when they say raids "matter" more than other content. I do acknowledge that something like a potency tweak is likely to have far more sweeping effects in a raid than elsewhere. But I still think balance matters elsewhere, insofar as it matters to players. It just requires less attention.

Imagine them buffing Afflatus Misery to 1,500 potency because WHMs felt they weren't doing enough damage in dungeons. (Would never happen, role with me here.). That would absolutely break WHM in raids, to the point that it would be optimal to just spam lily abilities and misery as much as humanly possible. WHM damage would be stupid high. They have to balance around that first.

Yes. And just buffing AST pDPS would cause issues in raids, I know. But if too many people feel like AST has issues in non-raid content, that may need to be addressed also.

This is why I'm trying to look at alternative solutions that work for raid-, dungeon-, and solo-focused players. Well, that and I just think it's interesting.

(Admittedly, though, I have no idea whether enough players are dissatisfied for it to be a problem. Myself, I've been fine with AST in dungeons, even before the 5.1 buffs; I just hate the playstyle. It's pretty terrible in solo stuff, but there's very little solo combat in this game.)

They are all very close and comparable right now. AST will outscale WHM probably next tier, and will be a bit better in the third tier this expansion.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if this turns out to be true. Which, for me, is another indication of how difficult it can be to balance all this stuff. I don't know that I agree with the perception that ShB WHM is overpowered in dungeons, but it's definitely the best dungeon healer. And yet apparently it's still at some risk of falling behind in raids.

WHM damage is already stupid high. They don't need any kind of buff.

Oh, obviously. I didn't mean "buff WHM rDPS"; I meant "give WHM an rDPS buff ability (and nerf their pDPS to compensate)". This is probably the simplest way to balance things.

Then there is 0 reason for cards to eixist.

Well, not zero; there's still pre-ShB bole and ewer. But yes, that's an issue with balancing things by removing healer rDPS. It'd be fine for SCH, but would gut AST. (Though I suspect I might personally prefer the new AST that emerged over the current one.)

that is a lot of developer time and resources for something that doesn't matter.

It is definitely the most complicated solution of the three. Its only real benefit is that it minimizes homogenization.