How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[MerlinCross]

I see nothing in the Tank trait tooltip indicating a damage reduction. What are you guys talking about?

Basically as I understand it so take this with some salt;

Previously, Tank Stance would lower how much damage you did while in it.

Now, Tank Stance is removed and we just flick a button to Tank or Not. But at the same time, they reduced how much damage we get from STR on attacks.

So at the end of the day, we don't have to worry about stance dancing but our damage is about the same anyway or at least in the ball park as if we kept Tank Stance on. Or at the very least, not as high as it should be when compared to Melee DPS and their Strength to Damage.

[Kabooa]

Basically as I understand it so take this with some salt;

Previously, Tank Stance would lower how much damage you did while in it.

Now, Tank Stance is removed and we just flick a button to Tank or Not. But at the same time, they reduced how much damage we get from STR on attacks.

So at the end of the day, we don't have to worry about stance dancing but our damage is about the same anyway or at least in the ball park as if we kept Tank Stance on. Or at the very least, not as high as it should be when compared to Melee DPS and their Strength to Damage.

Tanks went from less strength same scaling, to same strength less scaling.

The change of tank stance is a separate tuning consideration, which if you consider it from a mathematical perspective (One in, one out), if one tank was 8000, you expect the other to be at 6400. Add together, divide by two, 7200 is your new baseline. That's how I would do it, at least.

[Falar]

Basically as I understand it so take this with some salt;

Previously, Tank Stance would lower how much damage you did while in it.

Now, Tank Stance is removed and we just flick a button to Tank or Not. But at the same time, they reduced how much damage we get from STR on attacks.

So at the end of the day, we don't have to worry about stance dancing but our damage is about the same anyway or at least in the ball park as if we kept Tank Stance on. Or at the very least, not as high as it should be when compared to Melee DPS and their Strength to Damage.

Well last I checked my stat screen STR = Attack power, 1:1. Next time I log in I'll make sure.

[ArianeEwah]

Well last I checked my stat screen STR = Attack power, 1:1. Next time I log in I'll make sure.

The thing is STR = Attack power, but tank AP =/= DPS/healer AP

FFXIV LV80 Stat Tiers
Update from 07/13/2019

AP and Tank AP added. Tank Mastery nerfs tank damage, so it has different tiers

The main-stat Tiers table is showing the difference in scaling, tho I am not sure I fully understand it myself...
The way I see it: To do the same damage as a DPS with 3.000 AP, a tank needs an AP of 4.162. So tanks get ~28% less power than other jobs, other traits not included.

[ReiMakoto]

"Reduces damage taken by 20%. Furthermore, grants a bonus to maximum HP is granted based on your vitality attribute, and a bonus to damage dealt based on your strength attribute."

What is being referred to is that, it's a case of the description being technically correct. Specifically the part about gaining a "Bonus to damage dealt based on your strength attribute"

Essentially, Tanks DO get bonus damage based on their strength. Just, at a rate that is 20% less than what other jobs get from their primary attribute (Maybe healers are in a similar boat? It's hard to say given that they have low potency skills anyway even if they scaled at a normal rate, unlike Tanks whom have 600/800/920 potency skills)

I think its a bit more than 20% less than what other jobs get if im reading the how to be a math wizard document right, every other job gets a x165 in their attack function, whereas tanks get a x115 in the part of the fomula that utilises main stat.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.cptqvz54gx6a

This means if we were take an arbitrary Attack Power stat of 1000 for sake of argument.

floor[165*(1000-340)/340]+100= 420
floor[115*(1000-340)/340]+100= 323

based on this its like more ~25% less damage.

Healers won't suffer this issue as we are existing in a state where everyones gaining main stat at the same rate as each other, it is only tanks that is returning a lower value based on this value. The only way healers suffer from this is they get a substat that contributes 0 damage, but the effect of substats is less pronounced.
(note I could have read this document wrong because im only glancing it, but given how they all combine multiplicatively in some way im pretty confident ive understood it right)

[Falar]

That's really sneaky then as the trait calls it a "damage bonus" yet they changed our damage formula on the back end to nerf us hard. So they basically did what many of the bads were requesting, forced us into tank stance permanently.

I always liked how tanks could actually do ok damage to the point where solo play wasn't painful. If our scaling keeps falling behind I guess I'm out.

[Kabooa]

That's really sneaky then as the trait calls it a "damage bonus" yet they changed our damage formula on the back end to nerf us hard. So they basically did what many of the bads were requesting, forced us into tank stance permanently.

I always liked how tanks could actually do ok damage to the point where solo play wasn't painful. If our scaling keeps falling behind I guess I'm out.

Really, because I'd put the blame squarely on people who wanted the same stat scaling on their accessories.

[Kalise]

Really, because I'd put the blame squarely on people who wanted the same stat scaling on their accessories.

I'd put it on SE really.

They're the ones who keep mentioning how they think "Tank damage is too high"

Then they're the ones who made this change in such a backhanded way, by hiding the damage reduction in the trait that says you get "a bonus to damage dealt based on your strength attribute" and then further hiding it by giving all Tanks really high potency attacks to try and pacify people who won't do the math to realize that their damage is not where it should be given such skills.

I always liked how tanks could actually do ok damage to the point where solo play wasn't painful. If our scaling keeps falling behind I guess I'm out.

Honestly, given how they keep making us play like DPS, they could at least let us damage like DPS too... Maybe that'd get more people into the role and away from DPS jobs (Though, Healers are in more urgent need of new players these days)

[Kabooa]

I'd put it on SE really.

They're the ones who keep mentioning how they think "Tank damage is too high"

I put it on the players. SE wouldn't have randomly just shifted what is ultimately perception without the near endless presence of "Buh my accessories" in the forums.

The tank stance part, I'd say is 50/50. SE not designing stances well and players saying 'just get rid of it'.

[ArianeEwah]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.cptqvz54gx6a

This means if we were take an arbitrary Attack Power stat of 1000 for sake of argument.

floor[165*(1000-340)/340]+100= 420
floor[115*(1000-340)/340]+100= 323

based on this its like more ~25% less damage.

Thanks for the sheet. I would like to change that example tho... 1000 AP seems unfitting for lvl 80.
The lowest AP value on iLvl 430 is ~3460 on tanks, and 3560 on other roles. AP on current BiS would be ~4770+ on tanks, ~4870 on others.
If we put those into the equation, we get:

iLvl 430 all f(ATK) = 1.662
iLvl 430 tank f(ATK)=1.155

~30.5% less damage

iLvl 500 all f(ATK) = 2.298
iLvl 500 tank f(ATK)=1.598

again ~30.5% less damage.

In addition to this, DPS jobs have stronger buffs and/or potencies, and according to a certain website that sums up the statistics *cough* f *cough* f *cough* lo- sry.
Tanks do < 60% damage of DPS jobs. In comparison, in Alexander and Omega raid tiers dealt about 70-80%, tho those with 80% happened because of Warrior being an OP job back then, when they dealt 15-30% more dps than PLD - the lowest dps tank. Granted, tanks were more vulnerable back then, too.

I'm not sure whether the trade-off increased defense vs decresed damage is justified, may it be solo or party play. Yet one fact remains: The tank dps drop from previous expansions is huge, it's more than 10%, and tank veterans feel that.

I'd put it on SE really.

They're the ones who keep mentioning how they think "Tank damage is too high"

Then they're the ones who made this change in such a backhanded way, by hiding the damage reduction in the trait that says you get "a bonus to damage dealt based on your strength attribute" and then further hiding it by giving all Tanks really high potency attacks to try and pacify people who won't do the math to realize that their damage is not where it should be given such skills.

I don't get this either. Why nerfing the AP of tanks through a trait, why locking tanks out from STR accessories, but not adding STR on tank gear, why adding VIT into damage calculation, why artificially lowering tank STR value through hidden stat trait on other roles (yes, other roles get main stat buffs through "hidden traits" while tanks get VIT buffs) etc.
Why not simply lower tank potencies? Would this screw up lower levels/old content? Might this scare people away from playing tank 'cause of lower potencies?
Instead we have multiple (imho) over-the-top complicated formulas that lead to the same result. I don't really get the system behind.

Nevertheless, I am glad that the "only tanks have to meld STR" era is finally over after so many years. The changes done to the accessories are great, honestly should've been part of Stormblood. I am still in two minds about the tank mastery trait...