How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Samsta]

Damage does matter.
Take away tanks damage and see what will happen, barely anyone will want to play the class. Dealing big damage is fun and its important, since SE want it play safe and by design makes it the most important game aspect...
If you see yourself trying your best and sit at the bottom of damage chart no matter what you did, i am more than sure you would not be happy to play job you play. Welcome to the warriors world.

So the reason you play the game is so you can see yourself at the top of the dps list? Not to complete the content? Not to have fun trying to optimize damage inside your job? Only the completely meaningful relative damage matters?

[Nedkel]

So the reason you play the game is so you can see yourself at the top of the dps list? Not to complete the content? Not to have fun trying to optimize damage inside your job? Only the completely meaningful relative damage matters?

You doing less damage than everyone else around you makes you want to play classes others play.
You have a class which is dealing less damage, its more boring and simple than dps, does not unfluence the party outcome such as healers do. Whats the point in playing it? It feels like a poor man dps, because besides tanking some dmg here and there you are doing a melee dps job with barebone rotation, with barely any depth at all.
And on top of that you are dealing twice less damage as a dps class does.
Tanks should deal at least 75-80% of dps damage, it does make a difference because in this game you could jump from one to another job in a second and compare.
Would you melt mobs two times faster or be a boring version of a dps that has half of its skill kit filled with situational skills and lazyass designed percentage damage reductions?

[Samsta]

You doing less damage than everyone else around you makes you want to play classes others play.
You have a class which is dealing less damage, its more boring and simple than dps, does not unfluence the party outcome such as healers do. Whats the point in playing it? It feels like a poor man dps, because besides tanking some dmg here and there you are doing a melee dps job with barebone rotation, with barely any depth at all.
And on top of that you are dealing twice less damage as a dps class does.
Tanks should deal at least 75-80% of dps damage, it does make a difference because in this game you could jump from one to another job in a second and compare.
Would you melt mobs two times faster or be a boring version of a dps that has half of its skill kit filled with situational skills and lazyass designed percentage damage reductions?

Maybe dps is for you then if you wanna deal damage? Tanks have plenty of things to worry about in harder content on top of optimizing doing damage, you have to maintain a defensive cooldown rotation, party mitigation and position the boss (in fights where that is possible) and do tank specific mechanics. If that is not enough for you play dps.

[Lodi]

I'd be pretty annoyed if I had to maintain a rotation, burst windows and plenty of CDs, and still do less damage than some healy boi spamming one button and using two others once or twice per minute.

[FallenWings]

Maybe dps is for you then if you wanna deal damage? Tanks have plenty of things to worry about in harder content on top of optimizing doing damage, you have to maintain a defensive cooldown rotation, party mitigation and position the boss (in fights where that is possible) and do tank specific mechanics. If that is not enough for you play dps.

> Tells people to play another role when their role feels weak.
> Turns around and complains why no one plays Tanks.

The point of the argument for more tank damage is to have meaningful impact. It has been regurgitated over and over that it is not about having damage for damages sake but to have meaningful contribution equal to the DPS role. And that is frankly damage or actual tank mechanics to allow for a tank to truly impact the fight.

There seems to be some misguided notion that improving tank impact would somehow disrupt the balance of the roles. Tanks are not balanced in terms of what they provide. It has been regurgitated over and over that mitigation and healing value ends after a sufficient threshold is passed.

On the other hand the value of DPS only continues to become more and more value after the threshold because it contributes to victory.

A tank players effort translating to only 60% of a DPS player? That doesn't sound good or fun.

Your damage doesn't matter, what matters is if you fill your damage square is expecting out of you while doing mechanics, again, if you did more damage, bosses would just have more health, they wouldn't end any faster. I am amazed people don't understand this. The obsession with with big numbers in your parser is close to an obsession really.

ALL DAMAGE MATTERS. Whether it comes from a tank or healer, it is damage. Look at all past iterations and discussions about damage coming from tanks or healers. Damage is the largest contributor to winning a fight with infinite value. Health and mitigation do not have any value beyond Pass/Fail. A tank mitigating an attack but surviving with 1 health and a tank mitigating an attack and surviving with 50k health has no impact on the fight. What mattered was that they survived.

The point is not that a boss would have more health. The point is that when a tank player presses a button, it has as much impact as a DPS player who presses a button. That the button press has an equal contribution to winning the fight.

And if we're talking about "quota" then I guess RDM, SMN and the Range classes are currently happy with their smaller "quota" over the other classes.

Oh wait.

[CrimsonGunner]

Would you melt mobs two times faster or be a boring version of a dps that has half of its skill kit filled with situational skills and lazyass designed percentage damage reductions?

its clear from your responses your a dps fanatic. if you truly don't believe that tanks influence party outcome just as big if not bigger then healers then it shows how little you feel about your job.
positioning is kinda key element especially for mechanics and as for dps being able to stay in certain places for most of the time is rather important for dps classes especially those who cant cast during movements not to mention some dps actually do more damage based on positions.

so if this is what you think tanks are "a poor man dps" then samsta is right, go be a dps class it will probably make you happier.

[Lersayil]

I'd be pretty annoyed if I had to maintain a rotation, burst windows and plenty of CDs, and still do less damage than some healy boi spamming one button and using two others once or twice per minute.

Would you? I personally respect healers now more than ever, since I dont have the mental fortitude or left-over sanity points to spam (mostly) a single button when I play. /jk

Anyways, that just speaks volumes more about the "complexity" of healer rotation and less about tank dps. I think it was kinda stated by Yoshi and gang sometime around SB launch, that rotational complexity does not scale to damage done when they design things (see SAM and RDM... but really just SAM).

[CrimsonGunner]

stuff

a tanks effort to keep party members alive doesn't contribute to dps? surviving those tank busters skills so a wipe wont happen isn't contributing?

as you said ALL DAMAGE MATTERS which means all party members damage matters not just tank.
sure that in higher content every person is expected to make certain amount but in the end its about THE ENTIRE PARTY REACHES THAT DAMAGE CHECKPOINT and it doesn't matter how much each contribute to reach it as long as it was reached. just as others said SE is making those dps ceiling based on the roles meaning tanks have their dps queue,healers have theirs ,and dps are the majority but in the end its team effort and it doesn't matter how much each contributed as long as it was done (its not a dps competition).

you said healing and mitigation have no value beyond pass/fail meaning and you don't find it valuable ? does dying because of no healing or mitigating sound that unimportant to you?
death=0 dps, death = party wipe , i sure find it significant enough for any party member and definitely show tank contribution to party and especially party dps.

as for the "quota" of RDM SMN and the range classes, you do realize they are in fact DPS JOBS and its their job doing damage.
they cant tank,they cant heal like healers do meaning they take care of one thing damage to boss.
they don't have a problem with just smaller dps,they have a problem with the DPS GAP BETWEEN THE JOBS IN THEIR ROLE and like i said before that gap is the major issue they have cause it basically lead to exclusion and banning them.
so yea compering them to other dps jobs is reasonable cause all of them are in fact DPS JOBS.

[Samsta]

> Tells people to play another role when their role feels weak.
> Turns around and complains why no one plays Tanks.

I didn't complain?

The point of the argument for more tank damage is to have meaningful impact. It has been regurgitated over and over that it is not about having damage for damages sake but to have meaningful contribution equal to the DPS role. And that is frankly damage or actual tank mechanics to allow for a tank to truly impact the fight.

Tanks do have an impact, you have to bring 2 tanks to every current savage fight, because their kits allow them to do things that have to be done (survive enough damage, hold aggro) that no other roles can do, that is part of their impact, the fact that it is different in nature to straight damage is only a problem if you have an obsession for damage numbers.

There seems to be some misguided notion that improving tank impact would somehow disrupt the balance of the roles. Tanks are not balanced in terms of what they provide. It has been regurgitated over and over that mitigation and healing value ends after a sufficient threshold is passed.

On the other hand the value of DPS only continues to become more and more value after the threshold because it contributes to victory.

Actually, what you are saying is kinda true but mitigation does also have somewhat of a scaling effect in it, since it determines how much the tanks need to be healed so they can survive the next hit, reducing the amount of healing needed to be done, thus probably allowing healers to dps more and heal less. Same with healing, the more your heals heal, less heals you have to dish out, however this isn't as straight of a scale as dps, it's more of a steps kind of scale, where at the next step you need 1 less heal. However, both of these also contribute to victory, what you probably meant is that it contributes to faster victory, and yes, it does, dps can be measured in 0 = not enough dps and then scaling infinitely to faster victory. However, as you will point out you don't care about speed/boss health, so what is the problem here? You don't seem to acknowledge how important the tanks job is for reaching victory.

A tank players effort translating to only 60% of a DPS player? That doesn't sound good or fun.

Again, if you can only measure "effort" with a dps parser I don't know what to say, why don't you do 6 dps 2 healer parties if tanks don't bring as much, oh right, because tanks have the value of surviving attacks and holding aggro. The effort translates to victory.

ALL DAMAGE MATTERS. Whether it comes from a tank or healer, it is damage. Look at all past iterations and discussions about damage coming from tanks or healers. Damage is the largest contributor to winning a fight with infinite value. Health and mitigation do not have any value beyond Pass/Fail. A tank mitigating an attack but surviving with 1 health and a tank mitigating an attack and surviving with 50k health has no impact on the fight. What mattered was that they survived.

The point is not that a boss would have more health. The point is that when a tank player presses a button, it has as much impact as a DPS player who presses a button. That the button press has an equal contribution to winning the fight.

Actually, there are 2 contributors to winning a fight 1. staying alive 2. dealing enough dps to win enrage. If you want to measure value per button pressed, when you press that defensive cd that will keep you alive and you would otherwise die, that doesn't have any value to you? Your example is self-defeating btw, the difference there is that if tank survives with 1 health, it follows up with healers throwing all their heals at him, where as if he survives with 50k health much less resources will be spent.

And if we're talking about "quota" then I guess RDM, SMN and the Range classes are currently happy with their smaller "quota" over the other classes.

Oh wait.

The difference here is that dps actually have to compete versus another, tanks don't have to compete with dps for spots in a party, there is a shared quota for all dps, and some fill that quota better. All you should care about is if you fill that tank quota that devs have taken into consideration, whether it's big or small, and all tanks currently do.

[Freyyy]

its clear from your responses your a dps fanatic. if you truly don't believe that tanks influence party outcome just as big if not bigger then healers then it shows how little you feel about your job.
positioning is kinda key element especially for mechanics and as for dps being able to stay in certain places for most of the time is rather important for dps classes especially those who cant cast during movements not to mention some dps actually do more damage based on positions.

There's barely any positionning in a tank's role in this game right now. Bosses just reposition themselves with every mechanic when they're not outright just a giant static hitbox that takes half the arena (Leviathan, Titan Maximum for example, which are half the current raid tier). Aggro has become a complete non-issue and mitigation is just invuln most busters and press CDs on the rest. Protecting party members is just press one button on a 90sec recast when big damage is coming. Nothing feels engaging nor impactful. Everything is scripted and very easy to do. The only thing remaining is damage.