5.0 Dark knight request: Delirium rework

[Danelo]

If this is where you going (if not, apologies)... Tank damage does, in general, feels low (3 of the 4 since if haven't completed leveling GNB). I saw a chart recently comparing previous expansions tank damage to this expansion and it showed that - made sense with what I felt playing tank jobs. Everyone wants to feel like they are contributing (damage being the major metric of that) and the low numbers, considering the effort, are, for some, enough to move to greener pastures. It's unfun for those that stay around.

GNB is my last tank to work on so I'll see if it gives enough of a dps feel as you mentioned.

[DRKoftheAzure]

If this is where you going (if not, apologies)... Tank damage does, in general, feels low (3 of the 4 since if haven't completed leveling GNB). I saw a chart recently comparing previous expansions tank damage to this expansion and it showed that - made sense with what I felt playing tank jobs. Everyone wants to feel like they are contributing (damage being the major metric of that) and the low numbers, considering the effort, are, for some, enough to move to greener pastures. It's unfun for those that stay around.

GNB is my last tank to work on so I'll see if it gives enough of a dps feel as you mentioned.

Yeah tank damage for DRK and WAR feel very low for how often you spam 1-2-3, PLD is only slightly better due to DoTs and how frequent their oGCDs are, GNB is kinda in the same boat but I do wish Gnashing Fang was at least 10 seconds more frequent...

[Satarn]

If this is where you going (if not, apologies)... Tank damage does, in general, feels low (3 of the 4 since if haven't completed leveling GNB). I saw a chart recently comparing previous expansions tank damage to this expansion and it showed that - made sense with what I felt playing tank jobs. Everyone wants to feel like they are contributing (damage being the major metric of that) and the low numbers, considering the effort, are, for some, enough to move to greener pastures. It's unfun for those that stay around.

GNB is my last tank to work on so I'll see if it gives enough of a dps feel as you mentioned.

The issue isn't really the dps output(well it is for some obv, but it's not the main problem). They could buff overall tank dps to match the actual DPS jobs and it would still feel like shit to play a tank in comparison to actual DPS, because the role simply does not feel engaging to play anymore.

The gameplay for WAR/DRK has been significantly dumbed down and homogenized, PLD is more-or-less equal to SB version(they lost some but gained some) which isn't bad per se, but since it's always been the simplest tank it doesn't help much here and the shiny new GNB - announced as the "complex" tank supposedly - is really not that much different.

On the other hand, if you wanted to try to argue that it's fine for dps side of tanks to be easier, because they have other responsibilities to take care of - the core tank role gameplay has been simplified as well, even though it already wasn't all that complex in the past.

The aggro has been pretty much completely removed as a mechanic. Tank stances, while themselves were not super engaging, got replaced with free passive mitigation. This coupled with removal of ability to crit from bosses, made optimized cooldown usage way less impactfull. Mitigation cds were homogenized - there are still differences of general defensive strength between the tanks, but the need to change your approach to cd usage when you're switching jobs is mostly gone.
When it comes to encounter design, there's very little need to position bosses in the fights we've got. Making every single TB of the tier a double(seriously - every single TB in all savage fights), pretty much removed cd/swap planning which was prevalent in SB, outside of optimizing the invulns. Furthermore, the few somewhat interesting TBs we've got are timed in such a way that they can all be cheesed with said invulns. There weren't really any interesting tank-specific mechanics, like having to protect someone either.

There's hardly anything enjoyable left in the current tank jobs, both in terms of offense and defense, so might as well switch to DPS and at least enjoy more engaging damage rotations as well as far more job diversity.

[shao32]

If this is where you going (if not, apologies)... Tank damage does, in general, feels low (3 of the 4 since if haven't completed leveling GNB). I saw a chart recently comparing previous expansions tank damage to this expansion and it showed that - made sense with what I felt playing tank jobs. Everyone wants to feel like they are contributing (damage being the major metric of that) and the low numbers, considering the effort, are, for some, enough to move to greener pastures. It's unfun for those that stay around.

GNB is my last tank to work on so I'll see if it gives enough of a dps feel as you mentioned.

while tank damage and tank contribution feels pretty poor this expansion this request is more about DRK gameplay problems rether that overall performance, im not requesting a increase of DRK damage but more enganging gameplay that is not purely copy pasted from WAR and ebing something more than "but 0 damage with TBN and Frey"

but acording to your argument im actually playing as DPS when i have to do anything outside of raids due how lame is play a tank outside of savage and i agree the role need way more complexity since right now is a joke.

[Danelo]

Hold up. I’m not making a counter argument to anything that has been said in the opening or after (for the most part). My comment was supplemental in nature & not meant to change the topic; I’m only saying the generally low tank damage makes it feel worse and compounds the issues DRK has with self-sustain, ld, BW needing to be used in the 2 ogcd slot/no haste, delIRium, 1-2-3, etc.

[shao32]

Hold up. I’m not making a counter argument to anything that has been said in the opening or after (for the most part). My comment was supplemental in nature & not meant to change the topic; I’m only saying the generally low tank damage makes it feel worse and compounds the issues DRK has with self-sustain, ld, BW needing to be used in the 2 ogcd slot/no haste, delIRium, 1-2-3, etc.

oh yeah i see, yeah you are right that the current tank situation combined with all the DRK desing problems it have complement themself.

[TheHyperFusion]

On the topic of Delirium, I admit that I got to thinking yesterday. Given that the skill does need a bit of a boost (but not excessively so), I thought to tweak it a little based on my experiences with it.

-

First effect - lasts 6 seconds: Delirium
Records damage taken. Barrier damage and damage reduced by abilities is still recorded.

I wasn't sure what to do with this initially, given barriers exist. However, I settled on having it count towards the tally since it would be a massive blow to SCH and barrier-using AST if barrier damage was not recorded, which would make WHM be heavily sought after for DRK tanks and you know you'd get people telling the SCH/AST to not use their skills. So yeah, barrier damage counts. You might also ask "Why include damage reduced?" My answer - why penalize someone who pops a defencive cooldown? And yes, I know that people improperly using cooldowns should be sacked, but... you get the idea.

-

After Delirium, second effect lasts 10 sec: Fervor of Pain
Reduces cooldown for Bloodspiller and Quietus by 0.5 seconds and removes their Blood Gauge cost.
Increases the damage dealt for the first Bloodspiller or Quietus used during this effect by 60% of the total amount of damage taken during Delirium, while additional uses of Bloodspiller and Quietus have their damage increased by 15% of the total amount taken during Delirium.
Bloodspiller and Quietus restore 600 MP per use during effect.

I really considered making the damage boost 100% and 33%, respectively. Then I realized you'd be getting ridiculous bonuses, so I bumped it down. I also considered taking Bloodspiller and Quietus off GCD for the duration, but I decided against it for the sake of balance and instead simply made it where their use reduces their cooldown (effectively, the global when they specifically are used).

[Satarn]

First effect - lasts 6 seconds: Delirium
Records damage taken. Barrier damage and damage reduced by abilities is still recorded.

After Delirium, second effect lasts 10 sec: Fervor of Pain
Reduces cooldown for Bloodspiller and Quietus by 0.5 seconds and removes their Blood Gauge cost.
Increases the damage dealt for the first Bloodspiller or Quietus used during this effect by 60% of the total amount of damage taken during Delirium, while additional uses of Bloodspiller and Quietus have their damage increased by 15% of the total amount taken during Delirium.
Bloodspiller and Quietus restore 600 MP per use during effect.

- Tying a damage cooldown to damage taken is terrible, especially if it's going to scale. It requires you not only to take damage every time Delirium goes off cd in order to use this(have fun if boss is doing dps/healer targetted mechanics at the time, even if you're MTing, or oneshots or stuff that gives dmg downs), but also encourages eating any extra damage possible, like aoes and vuln stacks, in order to maximize the output of the buff.
- Reducing gcd by whole 0.5 second would drop it under 2 seconds like GS4 MNK and make double weaving terrible even with good ping, which completely screws up DRKs biggest burst window(whenever Delirium lines up with 60 seconds cds), which is chock-full of double weaves. I'm all for DRK getting even a full-uptime speed buff, but not this drastic.
- This would likely force DRKs to stack way more SkS than other tanks in order to fit sixth BS into the 10 second window, which is a massive pain in the ass if you wanna multi/omni-tank.
- Even at 60/15% you're still potentially adding a shitton of dps without taking anything away to keep the total in check(and taking away to balance would be impossible, with how this buff is dependent on encounter and rng).
- You still end up just spamming BS. Riveting.

Basically it's a lot of overly-complicated mechanics on the skill, which add nothing interesting gameplay-wise, break things and you still end up with an Inner Release clone.

[TheHyperFusion]

Snipped for sake of character limit.

Sadly, without a full overhaul of the job by reworking each ability and adjusting the other tanks to make them unique as well, you cannot really pinpoint any specific ability of a single job within that role. My suggestion was based solely on my experience with DRK, the general feel of it throughout the Final Fantasy series (taking damage to deal damage), and the idea behind it in XIV (the whole "sacrifice, pain, etc" bit) - albeit also going off of just one ability and adjusting it, as this thread's OP is directed towards.
Like many in most of the job boards say (that I've read, at least), the issue is that some within a specific role (tank, healer, melee DPS, ranged phys DPS, magick DPS) feel far too similar to each other now with the ShB changes. On a personal view, I'd like to see more of a nod to prior incarnations within the series for each job. Sadly, I feel like they are attempting to make each job within a role more "in line" with each other - but they are going about it the wrong way, in my opinion as they aren't really working on every ability in a view of "What's the lore and intended feel of this job?".
You do have a point - the suggestion does indeed rely on taking damage and attempting to reduce GCD as much as possible, but it's a risk you take. Rely too much on taking damage in the timeframe, and you might tax your healers far too much. Yes, people will say "I need to be MT as DRK!" - but if you do tanking properly (switching OT/MT to keep Vuln stacks from getting too high, swapping when mitigation CDs are down, etc), it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Then again, based on the mindset of many MMORPG players, each and every individual seems to be of the thinking of "I must be best!" which is reinforced with some parses. I'd likely reconsider the suggestion, but I'd have to go through each tank job, as well as all of DRKs skill set, and completely redo it from there. At the immediate moment, that's something I don't want to do. xD
Speaking from a game designer view, I really do feel like the jobs need full reworks to make them unique... but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Sadly, without a full overhaul of the job by reworking each ability and adjusting the other tanks to make them unique as well, you cannot really pinpoint any specific ability of a single job within that role.

Yeah, that's basically the problem at the moment.

Like many in most of the job boards say (that I've read, at least), the issue is that some within a specific role (tank, healer, melee DPS, ranged phys DPS, magick DPS) feel far too similar to each other now with the ShB changes. On a personal view, I'd like to see more of a nod to prior incarnations within the series for each job. Sadly, I feel like they are attempting to make each job within a role more "in line" with each other - but they are going about it the wrong way, in my opinion as they aren't really working on every ability in a view of "What's the lore and intended feel of this job?".

Melee DPS seem to be more fun and balanced with maybe NIN being the exception. Tanks however, GNB seems like it is only designed with level 60 onwards content in mind for tanks and PLD just keeps getting better, like DRG, with each expansion. Healers however, WHM is just THE go-to healer with SCH being a decent second, DNC is every speedrunners wet dream for lower level content but could use more GCDs that tie in with the flourishes to be played like the devs intended it to be played but Physical Ranged could use some more variety in playstyles. Caster Ranged DPS, RDM only good for prog and works well with anyone that doesn't have too many magic attacks(so no PLD or DRK), SMN is basically the better replacement for RDM if you really need raid DPS, and BLM if you just want healers to adjust...

Speaking from a game designer view, I really do feel like the jobs need full reworks to make them unique... but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Yeah that's kind of how this expansion is right now... I would have been perfectly fine with Shadowbringers and even the next expansion to be delayed if it mean battle balance gets more love and attention...