Monk rework/dmg nerf idea.

[Kabooa]

I just wanna throw this out there
But what if Six sided star was a Ogcd and it just gave you max grease lightning

Would this make Tornado kick more usable and the opener not as reliant on server tick?

You TK -> SSS, other than when you have a re-opener where you open with SSS.

[Astj]

1) Change the CD of Riddle of Fire/Brotherhood to 120 seconds. Extend the duration of Brotherhood to 20 seconds and have it apply to all damage.
2) Remove the GL requirement of Tornado Kick and instead have it be something that can only be used every 3rd refreshing of GL (This also applies to refreshing caused by Riddle of Earth and Anatman) with a 30 second CD.
3) Change Anatman to only grant GL stacks every 3 seconds, regardless of server ticks and lower the CD to 30 seconds.
4) Change SSS into an oGCD that can only be used after a successful Tornado Kick and grant 10 seconds of True North upon its execution with no slow effect.
5) Either remove the True North effect from Riddle of Earth entirely, or reduce it down to 10 seconds at the most.
6) Remove the Fist Stances and untie GL4 from them. They offer nothing to the class and are fluff that can be removed entirely. They can also make the fist stances into just weaker versions of Riddles that change to riddles later on, with Fist of Wind becoming a trait to increase movement speed and Riddle of Wind being the trait to unlock the 2nd Should Tackle.
7) Have Brotherhood naturally generate 1 Chakra every 3 seconds for its duration while also still maintaining the extra chance to earn them from allies.
8) Change Deep Meditation into a 100% guaranteed chakra on crit.

With Brotherhood/Riddle of Fire being on a longer CD you lower MNK's DPS a bit but with the changes to Tornado Kick/SSS as well as the adjustments to Brotherhood and Deep Meditation, you are able to soften the overall nerfs to be less detrimental to MNK as a whole by smoothing out its toolkit in a way that makes it actually enjoyable to utilize your full kit. Tornado kick is no longer a dead skill but something that helps you by unlocking SSS to get another True North effect and with skills like Anatman and Riddle of Earth providing a faster build up towards TK, you can keep that flow going.

Personally, I don't feel that MNK really need a damage nerf all things considered. People say that its over performing because Brotherhood/Mantra is this god tier utility and that ignoring positionals is somehow busted but considering how little those skills actually offer and that the other melee DPS don't even have half the positionals of MNK, I just don't see that as justification for a nerf.

"6) Remove the Fist Stances and untie GL4 from them..."
Yes PLEASE YEEEEES!!!

[SpeckledBurd]

I dont disagree that that is how it has been. But the devs have kept fists of* since the beginning. To me that says even tho the stances have largely failed to do anything significant they are a part of the stylistic identity of monk. When i mained monk back in ARR pre NIN release i loved the idea of them but thought they were indeed pointless.

Idealisticaly all three fists would mark a phase change or style change in play, but to do that properly would cause button bloat likely. Unless certain buttons or moves just transformed when switching active fist. But making so many new abilities would not ever happen in the near future.

I just dont see them diseappearing. Mechanically they are useless, but mnk mains have wanted them gone since ARR and welll.... they havent gone yet. So i personally would like to see them be given a purpose. Ie fists of wind as the basic, fists of fire as the burst, and earth as the recovery/defensive. Since NIN released i havent played monk again seriously so i really dont know "what monks want" but i do know what would make me inspired to play the class again.

The problem with that logic is it ignores that the devs have admitted to not having much of an idea of what to do with Monk moving forward from expansion to expansion while also saying they were convinced that Monk in ARR was a complete job. In practice that's meant that glaring problems with Monk's kit have gone unchanged for long periods of time because it performed "Fine" and the devs could ignore it and completely rework Machinist/Summoner/Bard for the third time in a row. Tornado Kick is still identical to its implementation and the only time it was useful was an accident. Purification stuck around through Stormblood, as did One Ilm Punch. Arm of the Destroyer was terrible forever and only got changed this expansion as part of a wider change in AOE buff across the board.

I'd posit that the Fist Stances aren't part of the Jobs identity right now and they never have been. Decoupling the Riddles from the Fist Stances actually de-emphasized them. They're currently a set it and forget it thing as they've always been. They're also demonstrably not something the devs have any brilliant ideas for because we've seen them make the same mistake two expansions in a row with Tackle Mastery and Enhanced Fists of Fire/Riddle of Wind by wasting traits on it. They're just something that's stuck around forever because of the combination of Monk being perpetually the last on the devs list when it comes to designing it because it's always "fine" and even if they aren't a big problem, they need to go and stop wasting slots and traits.

As for your way of fixing them, as I mentioned, the devs actively de-emphasized them by decoupling the Riddles from the Fist Stances and I don't think forcing Monk to slow down (again) and stance dance just so it can use Riddle of Fire is a good interaction at all. It actively draws away from one of the few good things about Shadowbringer Monk by taking you out of GL4.

[IruruCece]

The problem with that logic is it ignores that the devs have admitted to not having much of an idea of what to do with Monk moving forward from expansion to expansion while also saying they were convinced that Monk in ARR was a complete job. In practice that's meant that glaring problems with Monk's kit have gone unchanged for long periods of time because it performed "Fine" and the devs could ignore it and completely rework Machinist/Summoner/Bard for the third time in a row. Tornado Kick is still identical to its implementation and the only time it was useful was an accident. Purification stuck around through Stormblood, as did One Ilm Punch. Arm of the Destroyer was terrible forever and only got changed this expansion as part of a wider change in AOE buff across the board.

I'd posit that the Fist Stances aren't part of the Jobs identity right now and they never have been. Decoupling the Riddles from the Fist Stances actually de-emphasized them. They're currently a set it and forget it thing as they've always been. They're also demonstrably not something the devs have any brilliant ideas for because we've seen them make the same mistake two expansions in a row with Tackle Mastery and Enhanced Fists of Fire/Riddle of Wind by wasting traits on it. They're just something that's stuck around forever because of the combination of Monk being perpetually the last on the devs list when it comes to designing it because it's always "fine" and even if they aren't a big problem, they need to go and stop wasting slots and traits.

As for your way of fixing them, as I mentioned, the devs actively de-emphasized them by decoupling the Riddles from the Fist Stances and I don't think forcing Monk to slow down (again) and stance dance just so it can use Riddle of Fire is a good interaction at all. It actively draws away from one of the few good things about Shadowbringer Monk by taking you out of GL4.

Remember that you're discussing the job with someone who hasn't mained it in years, but for some reason has a lot of ideas on how they would nerf it and change it to make other folks who also don't main the job happy for some reason.

There has been an absurd rash of this kind of thread on the forums, and not one of them has been productive.

[Vendalwind]

The problem with that logic is it ignores that the devs have admitted to not having much of an idea of what to do with Monk moving forward from expansion to expansion while also saying they were convinced that Monk in ARR was a complete job.

That isn't a problem with my logic. My logic was sound, but did not examine or analyze ALL events ever in the history of the game. If all events had to be considered for logic to be sound then no logic in any field except for math would be sound.

ANYWAYS
That's definitely some analysis I hadn't considered, And you have some good points. It is absolutely true that the negligence towards Fists Of* suggests that it hasn't been integral to their current iteration of the job. And the Decoupling of riddles from fist stances further suggest that, but what I said about the original complete job still holds true, even if back in ARR fist stances weren't perfectly designed, they were absolutely a facet of the Monks original identity and development.

So I pretty much agree with all of your analysis except this one part:

I'd posit that the Fist Stances aren't part of the Jobs identity right now and they never have been.

The "they never have been" part you have not disproven by any means. Absolutely right now they aren't really part of MNK identity, but to me at the beginning of the game they absolutely were, and I would posit that by very nature of being included in, and acquired by the job quests in ARR that they were very much part of Monks identity at least during ARR.

Regardless I've made it pretty clear my position is one of perspective and desire. I LIKE the Fist Of* moves and want them to become a more prominent part of Monk's kit, thus my proposals and hopes for the classes future.

I don't think forcing Monk to slow down (again) and stance dance just so it can use Riddle of Fire is a good interaction at all. It actively draws away from one of the few good things about Shadowbringer Monk by taking you out of GL4.

I disagree, which isn't to invalidate your statement, as I recognize you think would be a bad interaction. To me trade-offs with positive gain are a very valuable and interesting way to build a class. Losing GL4 for 20 seconds (with it 5% atk speed) to instead net gain 20% bonus dmg for those seconds is a very good trade off. Now this may be biased and here is admitting why: I enjoy NIN at the moment. And... well basically every part of NIN's kit right now is a trade off.

Using a Ninjutsu right now is a guaranteed minor clip into GCDs resulting in a lost GCD over time.
Using Suiton Loses you a Raiton, and some additional GCD clip, but gains you access to trick attack.
Using Meisui trades access to trick attack and loses a raiton OR a gcd if used in TCJ in favor of half a bhavacakra, or a better aligned bunshin. Literally a CRAZY trade off that requires over 20 seconds of prep to net gain only 30 potency should you be able to actually get the bhavacakra in. (what the hell Devs? this is the only trade off I hate right now)
Using TCJ loses you 2-4 GCDs, but is still very much a potency gain.
Delaying Mug loses you some Mug potency, but prevents Ninki overcapping from time to time, and honestly its hard to tell when and how long one can delay mug without serious loss. but It is still an interesting trade off tool that takes skill and fight knowledge to use perfectly.

My point being trade offs aren't inherently bad, but can sometimes make a class more dynamic and interesting. Right now MNK doesn't have to make any decisions with any amount of foresight. If you do the opener right it's pretty much just use everything in order, on cooldown, and react to disconnects or downtime appropriately. I want MNK to be more than that.

And it's obvious... that many people don't want MNK to be more than that. And that's okay.

It actively draws away from one of the few good things about Shadowbringer Monk by taking you out of GL4.

To me that's actually one of the bad things about ShB. I actually don't like just sitting in GL4 and ignoring positionals. via riddle of earth. And if it wasn't the case then TK might still be useful. In fact I'd go as far as to say that sitting in GL4 right now is so valuable, that its the thing that indirectly makes so many other parts of the kit flawed and useless currently. But that is absolutely just a perspective opinion.

[Vendalwind]

Remember that you're discussing the job with someone who hasn't mained it in years, but for some reason has a lot of ideas on how they would nerf it and change it to make other folks who also don't main the job happy for some reason.

There has been an absurd rash of this kind of thread on the forums, and not one of them has been productive.

Remember that I have played it still, and Did in fact play it near the beginning of this expac at my statics insistence since NIN was so craptastic.
And additionally know that I would have a vested interest in returning to the job.

Just because someone "mains" something else doesn't make their opinion somehow less valid.

Less with the lemmings perhaps...

I mean seriously Iruru your post was probably the most snarky and least productive comment thus far in this whole thread.

Additionally, based on the small anecdotal statements in this thread, it seems most of the people here that left monk for another job did so because they were disappointing in Fist Of*. There may have been additional reasons, but that is definitely part of why I left. And it also sounds like at least a few people would very much consider returning to the job if Fist Of* moves were made more integral and interesting.

[IruruCece]

I mean seriously Iruru your post was probably the most snarky and least productive comment thus far in this whole thread.

There is absolutely nothing productive about a thread based around nerfing a job you don't even main while suggesting to make the kit somehow worse than what you're starting from. Complexity for the sake of complexity is bad design. Get that outta here.

It looks to me that you are basing your opinion of what you want Monk to be off of Ninja, the job that you were 'pushed away from' because despite it playing 'the way you want', its kit was and still is badly under-performing. That ought to be your first clue as to why Monk players shouldn't take any of your suggestions seriously. But you also apparently have no perspective on how the job has changed from Heavensward, to Stormblood, to Shadowbringer's LAUNCH, and the subsequent band-aids that SE has slapped on because they do not know what they are doing with the job. And based on your suggestions, neither would you in their position of actually making the game. At some point, SE didn't actually test their changes thoroughly enough, and the results show.

Even if you took away the ability ignore positional requirements, forced melee to do them anyway, took away rush job changes like Riddle of Earth as it stands right now, good Monks would still be making Ninjas look like a joke. Samurai, and pretty much every other DPS in the game outside of the current leaders, would still be under-performing. The bottom line is that Monks are ONE symptom of a much wider spread problem across multiple jobs in the game. They aren't THE problem. Threads like this one, threads like "Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind" are inherently unproductive trash because they refuse to acknowledge this fact.

[Silver-Strider]

At, say 3850 Critical Hit, the Leaden Fist Bootshine positional would be worth exactly 173.85 Monk potency, which would be worth 260.78 raw potency, 237 DRG potency, or 231 SAM potency, true. It is absurdly strong.

But the point I was replying to was the frequency of the positionals (that other jobs "don't have even half the positionals of MNK", and thus MNK deserves not to have its damage nerfed); had the complaint been the absurdity of LFB's punishment, I would have simply directed them to Trick Attack.
And it hardly seems worth saying that Monk is so positional-ridden that it needs BLM-level damage despite having Brotherhood just because every skill has one when their positionals are each worth only 20 potency, down from the 80 positional potency of DRG's combo finishers or the 64+ of any SAM finisher, and can be ignored for two-thirds of the time.

Couple things here.
For starters, if missing positionals was as insignificant for a MNK as you make it out to be, people wouldn't give a damn about RoE. Those missed positionals add up very quickly the more they occur and with the majority of MNK's toolkit having positionals, you can and will miss positionals quite often if not for True North/RoE. While other jobs do get punished more for missing the few positionals they do have, that doesn't instantly mean that a MNK's missed positionals have less value to them, especially in the case of LFB. As for MNK's DPS matching that of BLM when MNK has utility, that's actually completely balanced and I fail to see why you bring it up as a negative thing. If utility isn't making up the gap between a Selfish DPS and a Support DPS or if the Selfish DPS doesn't do enough damage to justify bringing over the Support DPS, then the game isn't balanced. I mean, if you strip away all utility from MNK to make it a Selfish DPS again and adjusted its pDPS to compensate for the lack of utility, would matching the numbers of another selfish DPS be a problem? If that isn't a problem, then why is it problem with the utility? If MNK was reaching BLM BEFORE taking into account utility, then you'd have a point but this isn't the case at all so what exactly is the problem with MNK matching BLM's damage via utility?

[Vendalwind]

YAY Time for my favorite game! Duplicating harassment!

There is absolutely nothing productive about a thread based around nerfing a job you don't even main while suggesting to make the kit somehow worse than what you're starting from.

-First, Anyone could ask for a job nerf if the balance was off. The balance is off

-Second I truly believe my rework would make the kit more fluid and fun to play, and the nerf portion i suggest is EXCEEDINGLY mild, with a few buffs placed in even. If you actually thoroughly give some of the propositions of mine a good think through you will notice that.

-And third. It absolutely is productive, even other people have offered further rework advice and the community has shown that my opinion is not primarily favored among at least the monks in this thread. That is actually productive information gained What you are doing: being belligerent and unfriendly while failing to actually present any interesting information, is unproductive.

Complexity for the sake of complexity is bad design. Get that outta here.

Actually It's not. Go play minecraft if you want a simple game.
Get your weak uncomplex self outta here.
Logic based on your premise "Complexity for the sake of complexity is bad design" leads to Hey every class should be 1 button, because that would be the least complex! therefore the best design YAY.
Which is of course idiotic. The game wouldn't be fun without having to learn fights around cast times as BLM, or without having to deal with positionals as melee. or without random procs keeping you on your toes as ranged, without gauges added to make quick maths improve your performance. The fact is if the game was just a cakewalk? no one would enjoy playing it. and if the content was clearable with one button? there would be no competitive seen or reason to even parse logs or think about dps.

IT IS actually a fact that a certain measure of difficulty directly correlates to an increase in enjoyment of content.

If you want to stick with this perception that difficulty isn't fun then fine, But you should really probably go play Super-Press space to win rpg or something then cause it'd get you off I'm pretty sure.

It looks to me that you are basing your opinion of what you want Monk to be off of Ninja,

That assumption is incorrect. Thank you for "it looks to me." Sincerely I mean that. So many people assume without making it known they are making an assumption.

I love Nins complexity, this is true. But i used it only as an example of TRADE OFFS.
Monks Fist Of* switching would actually in concept be closer in design to BLM's alternating between fire and blizzard than anything NIN has.
Literally nothing i suggested makes it more similar to NIN than adding some mild difficulty. If you so desire I can provide a few examples in fact of how the rework would actually make it even LESS similar.

the job that you were 'pushed away from' because despite it playing 'the way you want', its kit was and still is badly under-performing.

You misrepresent me here by suggesting that quote belongs to me, or anything similar to it. It does not.
I was not pushed away from monk, and I did not state that anywhere in this thread. I noted that "it seems most of the people here that left monk for another job did so...etc"
I did not group myself in that consensus. I left because Monk was boring. And because I like the style of NIN better. Literally had nothing to do with kit. In point of fact in ARR when NIN got his first mudra I groaned while leveling it. I really didn't want to be doing Naruto crap. I wanted NIN and rogue to be all about blade play. But oh well.

That ought to be your first clue as to why Monk players shouldn't take any of your suggestions seriously.

False logic. You connect a false quote, then reference a weak kit at some point in the past, and then...-> conclude my input is invalid?
Again your reasons for tuning me out are entirely baseless.
You feel the need to claim you have supreme understanding of the job because you play it more than me. Which for all I know, and all YOU know MIGHT NOT EVEN BE TRUE. So stop making assumptions. STOP trying to shut me down and justify your A-hole behavior with pitiful trolling. The only valid reason you have to try to shut me up, is that you disagree with my opinion and my rework and you want less people to pay attention too it, and BABY you are failing since every time you bump this thread you only help me out.

But you also apparently have no perspective on how the job has changed from Heavensward, to Stormblood, to Shadowbringer's LAUNCH, and the subsequent band-aids that SE has slapped on because they do not know what they are doing with the job.

False assumption
I literally read through the entire list of change logs for monk from ARR to now before making this rework. I thought hard a deep about simple ways to make the whole kit valid and well flowing.
AND I was also here for you know... the whole band aids etc?

And based on your suggestions, neither would you in their position of actually making the game. At some point, SE didn't actually test their changes thoroughly enough, and the results show.

Based on my suggestions huh? Who the hell are you to pass such judgement?
I actually tried to look you up. You don't even play Savage content do you????
You above anyone else then have LESS right to talk about MNK than I as I DO play Savage content as MNK, albeit Not very well *cough*

Even if you took away the ability ignore positional requirements, forced melee to do them anyway, took away rush job changes like Riddle of Earth as it stands right now, good Monks would still be making Ninjas look like a joke.

Literally no point in saying this.
Now you are just being a bigger A hole. Supremacy complex much? Thats all the more reason to nerf you friendo.

Samurai, and pretty much every other DPS in the game outside of the current leaders, would still be under-performing. The bottom line is that Monks are ONE symptom of a much wider spread problem across multiple jobs in the game. They aren't THE problem.

Yes. Actually they are. If content of the game is to stay balanced difficulty wise The top needs to be brought down to a middle line, and the bottom needs to be brought up that line. Otherwise you have inflated the power of the dps as a whole and nerfed the entire content of the game instead.
That is literally a fact. A direct cause and effect relationship. MONK MUST BE NERFED, or THE CONTENT OF THE GAME IS RESULTANTLY MADE EASIER BY ANY OTHER CHARACTERS BUFF.

Threads like this one, threads like "Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind"

No.
I will not even try to more directly change your mind. Because you haven't used a single shred of logic to make a post as of yet. No all you have done is simple-mindedly tried to shut people up for no reason beyond Me having not mained it for years. NEWS FLASH FRIENDO, I mained it at the beginning of this expansion through titania EX and Innocence EX and have played it in E1-E3.
And your second reason. Apparently Non-Monk Mains opinions are invalid. Remind me to tell you to shut the help up everytime you even mention another class then.

OH HEY speaking of you dont main MNK or SAM do you? NO you don't So I guess all your above statements that mention them are invalid yes?

are inherently unproductive trash because they refuse to acknowledge this fact.

Fact huh? You need to check either your ability to use english, or your ability to comprehend logic.

You have shouted nothing but baseless accusations and OPINIONS

Please show yourself the hell out of my thread.

[Vendalwind]

Couple things here.
For starters, if missing positionals was as insignificant for a MNK as you make it out to be, people wouldn't give a damn about RoE. Those missed positionals add up very quickly the more they occur and with the majority of MNK's toolkit having positionals, you can and will miss positionals quite often if not for True North/RoE. While other jobs do get punished more for missing the few positionals they do have, that doesn't instantly mean that a MNK's missed positionals have less value to them, especially in the case of LFB. As for MNK's DPS matching that of BLM when MNK has utility, that's actually completely balanced and I fail to see why you bring it up as a negative thing. If utility isn't making up the gap between a Selfish DPS and a Support DPS or if the Selfish DPS doesn't do enough damage to justify bringing over the Support DPS, then the game isn't balanced. I mean, if you strip away all utility from MNK to make it a Selfish DPS again and adjusted its pDPS to compensate for the lack of utility, would matching the numbers of another selfish DPS be a problem? If that isn't a problem, then why is it problem with the utility? If MNK was reaching BLM BEFORE taking into account utility, then you'd have a point but this isn't the case at all so what exactly is the problem with MNK matching BLM's damage via utility?

This is absolutely true. and it is generally easier for monks to miss positionals more frequently because they have no gaps in between their positionals, and additionally MNKs just well... have to use them more often.

I also agree with you on utility here. Damage utility should be able to when paired WITH a selfish dps exceed the total rDPS contribution of the selfish. If this is not true than dmg utility isnt actually valuable because welll.... it doesn't actually increase the damage the team does and without the 1% for role fulfillment having 4 selfish dps would be the strongest group possible. MNK does have mantra tho, as mild as its boost is.

Regardless the your argument with shurrikan here is one of -should difficulty be rewarded with dps- as it boils down. And there are many different perspectives on that in this forum. Most people think BLM's damage is justified by its position as a pure dps (no utility) or because it's high damage is only obtainable with high fight memorization and even some extra team effort to allow them to move less. And that really comes just down to how you think team comp should function. Shoudl people be there to support the all star glorious pure dpses, or should the team have to work as a whole with equal contributions approximately. You can tell I lean towards the second option can't you?