Monk rework/dmg nerf idea.

[IruruCece]

The problem with that logic is it ignores that the devs have admitted to not having much of an idea of what to do with Monk moving forward from expansion to expansion while also saying they were convinced that Monk in ARR was a complete job. In practice that's meant that glaring problems with Monk's kit have gone unchanged for long periods of time because it performed "Fine" and the devs could ignore it and completely rework Machinist/Summoner/Bard for the third time in a row. Tornado Kick is still identical to its implementation and the only time it was useful was an accident. Purification stuck around through Stormblood, as did One Ilm Punch. Arm of the Destroyer was terrible forever and only got changed this expansion as part of a wider change in AOE buff across the board.

I'd posit that the Fist Stances aren't part of the Jobs identity right now and they never have been. Decoupling the Riddles from the Fist Stances actually de-emphasized them. They're currently a set it and forget it thing as they've always been. They're also demonstrably not something the devs have any brilliant ideas for because we've seen them make the same mistake two expansions in a row with Tackle Mastery and Enhanced Fists of Fire/Riddle of Wind by wasting traits on it. They're just something that's stuck around forever because of the combination of Monk being perpetually the last on the devs list when it comes to designing it because it's always "fine" and even if they aren't a big problem, they need to go and stop wasting slots and traits.

As for your way of fixing them, as I mentioned, the devs actively de-emphasized them by decoupling the Riddles from the Fist Stances and I don't think forcing Monk to slow down (again) and stance dance just so it can use Riddle of Fire is a good interaction at all. It actively draws away from one of the few good things about Shadowbringer Monk by taking you out of GL4.

Remember that you're discussing the job with someone who hasn't mained it in years, but for some reason has a lot of ideas on how they would nerf it and change it to make other folks who also don't main the job happy for some reason.

There has been an absurd rash of this kind of thread on the forums, and not one of them has been productive.

[Vendalwind]

Remember that you're discussing the job with someone who hasn't mained it in years, but for some reason has a lot of ideas on how they would nerf it and change it to make other folks who also don't main the job happy for some reason.

There has been an absurd rash of this kind of thread on the forums, and not one of them has been productive.

Remember that I have played it still, and Did in fact play it near the beginning of this expac at my statics insistence since NIN was so craptastic.
And additionally know that I would have a vested interest in returning to the job.

Just because someone "mains" something else doesn't make their opinion somehow less valid.

Less with the lemmings perhaps...

I mean seriously Iruru your post was probably the most snarky and least productive comment thus far in this whole thread.

Additionally, based on the small anecdotal statements in this thread, it seems most of the people here that left monk for another job did so because they were disappointing in Fist Of*. There may have been additional reasons, but that is definitely part of why I left. And it also sounds like at least a few people would very much consider returning to the job if Fist Of* moves were made more integral and interesting.

[IruruCece]

I mean seriously Iruru your post was probably the most snarky and least productive comment thus far in this whole thread.

There is absolutely nothing productive about a thread based around nerfing a job you don't even main while suggesting to make the kit somehow worse than what you're starting from. Complexity for the sake of complexity is bad design. Get that outta here.

It looks to me that you are basing your opinion of what you want Monk to be off of Ninja, the job that you were 'pushed away from' because despite it playing 'the way you want', its kit was and still is badly under-performing. That ought to be your first clue as to why Monk players shouldn't take any of your suggestions seriously. But you also apparently have no perspective on how the job has changed from Heavensward, to Stormblood, to Shadowbringer's LAUNCH, and the subsequent band-aids that SE has slapped on because they do not know what they are doing with the job. And based on your suggestions, neither would you in their position of actually making the game. At some point, SE didn't actually test their changes thoroughly enough, and the results show.

Even if you took away the ability ignore positional requirements, forced melee to do them anyway, took away rush job changes like Riddle of Earth as it stands right now, good Monks would still be making Ninjas look like a joke. Samurai, and pretty much every other DPS in the game outside of the current leaders, would still be under-performing. The bottom line is that Monks are ONE symptom of a much wider spread problem across multiple jobs in the game. They aren't THE problem. Threads like this one, threads like "Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind" are inherently unproductive trash because they refuse to acknowledge this fact.

[Vendalwind]

The problem with that logic is it ignores that the devs have admitted to not having much of an idea of what to do with Monk moving forward from expansion to expansion while also saying they were convinced that Monk in ARR was a complete job.

That isn't a problem with my logic. My logic was sound, but did not examine or analyze ALL events ever in the history of the game. If all events had to be considered for logic to be sound then no logic in any field except for math would be sound.

ANYWAYS
That's definitely some analysis I hadn't considered, And you have some good points. It is absolutely true that the negligence towards Fists Of* suggests that it hasn't been integral to their current iteration of the job. And the Decoupling of riddles from fist stances further suggest that, but what I said about the original complete job still holds true, even if back in ARR fist stances weren't perfectly designed, they were absolutely a facet of the Monks original identity and development.

So I pretty much agree with all of your analysis except this one part:

I'd posit that the Fist Stances aren't part of the Jobs identity right now and they never have been.

The "they never have been" part you have not disproven by any means. Absolutely right now they aren't really part of MNK identity, but to me at the beginning of the game they absolutely were, and I would posit that by very nature of being included in, and acquired by the job quests in ARR that they were very much part of Monks identity at least during ARR.

Regardless I've made it pretty clear my position is one of perspective and desire. I LIKE the Fist Of* moves and want them to become a more prominent part of Monk's kit, thus my proposals and hopes for the classes future.

I don't think forcing Monk to slow down (again) and stance dance just so it can use Riddle of Fire is a good interaction at all. It actively draws away from one of the few good things about Shadowbringer Monk by taking you out of GL4.

I disagree, which isn't to invalidate your statement, as I recognize you think would be a bad interaction. To me trade-offs with positive gain are a very valuable and interesting way to build a class. Losing GL4 for 20 seconds (with it 5% atk speed) to instead net gain 20% bonus dmg for those seconds is a very good trade off. Now this may be biased and here is admitting why: I enjoy NIN at the moment. And... well basically every part of NIN's kit right now is a trade off.

Using a Ninjutsu right now is a guaranteed minor clip into GCDs resulting in a lost GCD over time.
Using Suiton Loses you a Raiton, and some additional GCD clip, but gains you access to trick attack.
Using Meisui trades access to trick attack and loses a raiton OR a gcd if used in TCJ in favor of half a bhavacakra, or a better aligned bunshin. Literally a CRAZY trade off that requires over 20 seconds of prep to net gain only 30 potency should you be able to actually get the bhavacakra in. (what the hell Devs? this is the only trade off I hate right now)
Using TCJ loses you 2-4 GCDs, but is still very much a potency gain.
Delaying Mug loses you some Mug potency, but prevents Ninki overcapping from time to time, and honestly its hard to tell when and how long one can delay mug without serious loss. but It is still an interesting trade off tool that takes skill and fight knowledge to use perfectly.

My point being trade offs aren't inherently bad, but can sometimes make a class more dynamic and interesting. Right now MNK doesn't have to make any decisions with any amount of foresight. If you do the opener right it's pretty much just use everything in order, on cooldown, and react to disconnects or downtime appropriately. I want MNK to be more than that.

And it's obvious... that many people don't want MNK to be more than that. And that's okay.

It actively draws away from one of the few good things about Shadowbringer Monk by taking you out of GL4.

To me that's actually one of the bad things about ShB. I actually don't like just sitting in GL4 and ignoring positionals. via riddle of earth. And if it wasn't the case then TK might still be useful. In fact I'd go as far as to say that sitting in GL4 right now is so valuable, that its the thing that indirectly makes so many other parts of the kit flawed and useless currently. But that is absolutely just a perspective opinion.

[SpeckledBurd]

That isn't a problem with my logic. My logic was sound, but did not examine or analyze ALL events ever in the history of the game. If all events had to be considered for logic to be sound then no logic in any field except for math would be sound.

ANYWAYS
That's definitely some analysis I hadn't considered, And you have some good points. It is absolutely true that the negligence towards Fists Of* suggests that it hasn't been integral to their current iteration of the job. And the Decoupling of riddles from fist stances further suggest that, but what I said about the original complete job still holds true, even if back in ARR fist stances weren't perfectly designed, they were absolutely a facet of the Monks original identity and development.

Using a single premise "The devs have kept the fist stances around since the beginning" to justify the conclusion that "The Fist Stances are part of Monk's identity" is an inductive fallacy (specifically a Hasty generalization) at the most generous or Cherry Picking at the worst. It's absolutely a logical error.

The "they never have been" part you have not disproven by any means. Absolutely right now they aren't really part of MNK identity, but to me at the beginning of the game they absolutely were, and I would posit that by very nature of being included in, and acquired by the job quests in ARR that they were very much part of Monks identity at least during ARR.

Regardless I've made it pretty clear my position is one of perspective and desire. I LIKE the Fist Of* moves and want them to become a more prominent part of Monk's kit, thus my proposals and hopes for the classes future.

How have they ever been a part of Monk's identity? Just because they implemented them during the conversion from 1.0 to ARR Doesn't automatically make them a part of the jobs identity, it just means it was part of the kit along with other skills that were ineffective and wasted space like Featherfoot, Haymaker, and One-Ilm Punch. In proper play their use has eternally been "Set it and forget it" except for during one brief moment of developer oversight. They don't factor into the gameplay and never have except for the previously mentioned period of developer oversight. They don't factor into the lore, and never have. And if they've never factored into gameplay outside of a bug and don't add anything to the class that removing them and adding a trait to the job would, then they're pure bloat plain and simple.

By the same logic of "The devs implemented it in 2.0 and it stuck around for multiple expansions" You'd be saying that One Ilm Punch was a part of Monk's identity in Stormblood, which it absolutely wasn't. It was button bloat, and so are the fist stances.

Monk's identity is that it's a job that deals low to moderate damage per hit that ultimately deals a large amount of damage in the long run because of its fast GCD. You're incentivized to an aggressive playstyle by Greased Lightning, a trademark buff that grants you a large haste and a sizeable damage buff provided you stay on the boss and keep attacking as you keep up other buffs with nonlinear combos that weave in and out of each other as you hit a high number of positionals.

That is what Monk is. That is what Monk has been since ARR. The reason people detested Riddle of Fire's slow was because it ran contrary to this. The Fist Stances have never factored into it and their continued existence on the job is a problem.

I disagree, which isn't to invalidate your statement, as I recognize you think would be a bad interaction. To me trade-offs with positive gain are a very valuable and interesting way to build a class. Losing GL4 for 20 seconds (with it 5% atk speed) to instead net gain 20% bonus dmg for those seconds is a very good trade off. Now this may be biased and here is admitting why: I enjoy NIN at the moment. And... well basically every part of NIN's kit right now is a trade off.

Using a Ninjutsu right now is a guaranteed minor clip into GCDs resulting in a lost GCD over time.
Using Suiton Loses you a Raiton, and some additional GCD clip, but gains you access to trick attack.
Using Meisui trades access to trick attack and loses a raiton OR a gcd if used in TCJ in favor of half a bhavacakra, or a better aligned bunshin. Literally a CRAZY trade off that requires over 20 seconds of prep to net gain only 30 potency should you be able to actually get the bhavacakra in. (what the hell Devs? this is the only trade off I hate right now)
Using TCJ loses you 2-4 GCDs, but is still very much a potency gain.
Delaying Mug loses you some Mug potency, but prevents Ninki overcapping from time to time, and honestly its hard to tell when and how long one can delay mug without serious loss. but It is still an interesting trade off tool that takes skill and fight knowledge to use perfectly.

My point being trade offs aren't inherently bad, but can sometimes make a class more dynamic and interesting. Right now MNK doesn't have to make any decisions with any amount of foresight. If you do the opener right it's pretty much just use everything in order, on cooldown, and react to disconnects or downtime appropriately. I want MNK to be more than that.

And it's obvious... that many people don't want MNK to be more than that. And that's okay.

Monk isn't Ninja. It's not a job about weaving oGCDs and it isn't a job about and frankly I don't think it should be and the gameplay you're describing for Ninja just sounds clunky and frustrating, and I think, considering how vicious the outcry against Riddle of Fire was for slowing Monk down during Stormblood, that that the Majority of Monk's would agree.

[Vendalwind]

Sigh....

Using a single premise "The devs have kept the fist stances around since the beginning" to justify the conclusion that "The Fist Stances are part of Monk's identity" is an inductive fallacy (specifically a Hasty generalization) at the most generous or Cherry Picking at the worst. It's absolutely a logical error.

Please note that in my original post concerning this I actually didn't even present that connection as a logical fact.
To quote myself
"I dont disagree that that is how it has been. But the devs have kept fists of* since the beginning. To me that says even tho the stances have largely failed to do anything significant they are a part of the stylistic identity of monk. When i mained monk back in ARR pre NIN release i loved the idea of them but thought they were indeed pointless."

Does any of that sound like im making a logical argument? Cause I wasn't. I literally used phrases like "to me", "stylistic identity" etc. because like I admit it has not been an integral part of the monks -playstyle identity- since even the beginning. I suppose I could have tried to pad my words even more by replacing 'says' with 'loosely suggests'... So when I say there isn't a logic error, its because In the post you argued with I didn't even attempt to make a logical argument. I expressed very completely an opinions piece. This forum needs more compromise and de-escalation. Im not good at the de-escalation part generally @_@ but seriously. generally speaking most people here have good things to say, but tend to attack eachother for their opinions instead of on the actual subjects themselves. I would argue with a few other things you said, but... I don't see the point of doing so.

I completely agree with this line you said below

Monk's identity is that it's a job that deals low to moderate damage per hit that ultimately deals a large amount of damage in the long run because of its fast GCD. You're incentivized to an aggressive playstyle by Greased Lightning, a trademark buff that grants you a large haste and a size-able damage buff provided you stay on the boss and keep attacking as you keep up other buffs with nonlinear combos that weave in and out of each other as you hit a high number of positionals.

I just think there is also more to him stylistically. and I don't understand why my perception and hopes for Monk Identity are so much the problem for you.

Can we please just get back to discussing reworks and kit fixes etc.? look over the fully described rework with the rotational analysis I've now provided.
I can already tell you aren't going to like the 5% attack speed nerf to shift into Fists of Fire's burst phase, but still please look it over. Maybe you can offer a suggestion or tweak to my rework that brings it more inline with your identity, rather than just trying to dismiss it outright because you don't like Fist Of* stances. Please.

[Vendalwind]

Here is another Idea. I don't like this idea because it kinda ruins the variation of fist stances and wind coupled with speed, but here goes:

What if everything in my rework remained the same EXCEPT:

Make riddle of Fire grant 20% increased dmg instead of 25% and then make it also grant a 5% haste for its duration.

Now the fire phase would retain the same speed as the Wind GL4 phase, but couldn't maintain that speed once RoF ended thus still prompting the return to Fists of Wind.

Now similar to TK only a single GCD would lack the GL4 buffs during the transition. GCD, weave Fists of Fire ->GCD, weave riddle of Fire, ->GCD, weave brotherhood.

Would that work for you? or is there some other piece of the rework that bothers you beyond that?

[Kurando]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Stormblood using Riddle of Fire and Riddle of Earth would force you in to their respective Fist stance though that has since been changed in ShB. The Fists also had unique Shoulder Charge effects which was also changed, so it begs the question in the current iteration is there any need in the stances or at least could one be removed or upgraded at later levels to something else (Fists of Earth)? Like the fists could be kept but they could be built in to current actions or one or two be changed in to traits. We keep Fists of Fire active most of the time, switching to Fists of Wind once GL4 is unlocked (and that if a little OP as well but not sure how to adjust it if it should be).

[Ramura_Sono]

I'd much rather fist stances be changed like so:

Fists of Wind becomes a trait that increases movement speed
Fists of Fire and Fists of Earth consolidated into one skill and made into a Single Target and AOE stance
Fists of Earth Changes bootshine, twinsnakes, and snap punch into Arm of the Destroyer, Four-point Fury (which now grants the twinsnakes buff instead of refreshing it), and rockbreaker respectively.

That would justify fist stances existing, while also having the benefit of reducing hotbar clutter.
Heck, with a single target and AOE stance monk could get many of it's lost skills back with things like Steel peak and howling fist interchanging depending on the stance.

[IruruCece]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Stormblood using Riddle of Fire and Riddle of Earth would force you in to their respective Fist stance though that has since been changed in ShB. The Fists also had unique Shoulder Charge effects which was also changed, so it begs the question in the current iteration is there any need in the stances or at least could one be removed or upgraded at later levels to something else (Fists of Earth)? Like the fists could be kept but they could be built in to current actions or one or two be changed in to traits. We keep Fists of Fire active most of the time, switching to Fists of Wind once GL4 is unlocked (and that if a little OP as well but not sure how to adjust it if it should be).

GL4 is hardly OP and not the problem with Monk damage right now.

If they make it so that riddle of fire forces us out of Fists of Wind again, then they have to adjust RoF AND Fists of Fire to justify why we have to lose GL4 to begin with (by buffing them most likely, which would make the backseat developers of the forums upset again when munk potencee go up). If they don't adjust them to justify that change, then just what would the point of these buttons be? Would we be adding complexity for the sake of complexity? That doesn't seem to work, just ask all the NIN players who gave up on their job early into ShB. Sure, it's satisfying to do neat button bemani to make the numbers appear, but when you have to put in a lot of effort for middling results, people get salty.

Coincidentally, that was one of the problems people had with monks in the past, that we would work pretty hard to do our one job, but struggle to keep up with other jobs nonetheless. The changes in Shadowbringers let Monks do great output... at the cost of ignoring some pretty core parts of our design, in addition to completely unmaking positive changes to the job after Stormblood's disasterpiece. It's a bandaid on a gaping chestwound of design missteps.