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  1. #21
    Player
    Tobias_Azuryon's Avatar
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    Jun 2017
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    Character
    Tobias Azuryon
    World
    Maduin
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Rika007 View Post
    Infinite mobility only matters if encounter design forces it into relevance, and simply put it's been a VERY long time since any encounter basically had a spot that essentially had to have a Ranged Physical DPS to do the job. Current fight design and mechanics of jobs is allowing for melee's to have nearly 100% uptime, and intelligent casters to use cooldowns in a way that their mobility loss is mitgated (especially in the case of black Mage, who can essentially go 20 seconds of movement without a single missed GCD if they plan properly).

    Now if they decide to start making prolonged moments where a single player needs to bait ranged mechanics for an extended period of time, or, have mechanics that enforce multiple moments of melee down time, then sure, Ranged Physical DPS would have a valid reason for their "mobility tax" and they would not need as much as a buff as most players say they do now. But the reality is that current fight design does not allow for ranged to shine with their advantages, and good luck getting players to not have issues with fight design that would allow for it. Melee's wont like fight design that forces them off attacking, casters won't like fight design that forces extended movement beyond what they can plan for, and healers won't like fight design where ranged players have to leave the range of their AOE heals and essentially baby them like they have to baby tanks. So for now, ranged DPS need to be given nearly the same level of balancing and damage as the other players. MCH should be just a hair off SAM and BLM, but also should be out DPS'ing jobs like MNK and SMN. BRD should be just a hair off SMN and MNK, but should be out DPS'ing RDM and DRG.
    Definitely disagree here. Even in Eden 1 I can ignore majority of the mechanics and continue a barrage and if you raise their damage too far you're literally making melee dps obsolete. I'm not saying Ranged DPS don't need a buff of sorts and rearranging, but puting a MCH next to a SAM and BLM would be terrible for balance imo. And I say that as someone who loves playing MCH and is one of my main classes.

    Even if a good player knows "how to" dodge AOEs and stuff in things like Eden and other stuff, the sheer fact remains that they are a non issue and barely exist to a ranged instant caster like MCH. To buff them ridiculously like that would make it the most overpowered and easy to play, something we're trying to get away from with MNK :P
    (2)

  2. #22
    Player
    Tobias_Azuryon's Avatar
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    Jun 2017
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    Character
    Tobias Azuryon
    World
    Maduin
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabooa View Post
    This was the reason I made the comment in the other thread that the role system has to evolve.

    We're slowly losing differentiating mechanical boons and boiling down to only damage, and while that's sort of always been the mentality (that has likely lead to this development), I think the train needs to turn around.

    We need more pronounced and celebrated differences, but we can have them in a role system designed for it. I think we can borrow Paradigms from FF13 for this and use them to great effect.

    Commando - A role that focuses on creating advantages for SKill Chains / Spell Burst (Effectively Team combos)

    Ravager - A role that exploits openings and buffs provided by others. (Pretty obvious who goes here)

    Saboteur - A role that debilitates enemies and opens up exploit windows.

    Synergist - A role that boosts the party.

    By expanding from 3 roles to 4, we create more incentive to bring one of each. By celebrating role specific synergy, we create more incentives to bring one of each, but not necessarily punish having more than one.
    I agree that roles need to be fleshed out more. But the problem is now the game is being balanced to take away choices from the player, which is part of the problem. There isn't much build diversity or anything to begin with, and like with Warframe and other things the most powerful CC and debuff is death :P

    The problem is the quantity of jobs for one thing, but also that every "buff" that people want is damage related and due to people maximizing healers and making them "easier" the meta is just do as much damage as possible. So that's why I frame my conversation about damage balancing because if we start talking the simplification of some of the jobs and the way players gravitated towards DPS even before the ShB changes we'd be dead.
    (1)

  3. #23
    Player
    dinnertime's Avatar
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    Mar 2015
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    Character
    Aurelius Lyon
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon View Post
    I mean yeah balance relies on utility existing. So the only way to fix it is get rid of utility like Raise/VErcure/being able to double cast cures/res/etc or you have to lower their damage. Why would anyone take a SMN when you can dual cure and dual raise with a RDM? The utility should affect their place in the ranking definitely. SMN just less so than others. If I'm a melee dps in a fight, and I can't res, but the SMN is long range AND can res and can heal and can outdamage me or do close to it, what benefit is there to take me? That's the balancing act. And I feel monk works counter to this due to its raw damage output and easy to execute utility.
    What gives you the impression that RDM's Vercure is something worthwhile to even consider in balancing? It's insignificant. And SMN healing? You mean Physick (that doesn't even scale with INT) and Everlasting Flight which both barely do any healing? You know what's a good healing utility? Mantra. It affects the healers and it's not even a DPS loss to use.
    (4)

  4. #24
    Player
    SaitoHikari's Avatar
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    Oct 2015
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    Character
    Saito Hikari
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    Yeah, the problem with MNK is two-pronged.

    They happen to be one of the top DPS in the game, as a class that isn't even selfish. They have more party utility than half of the classes below them, so the uproar against them is because they seemingly escaped any support tax that was placed on every other DPS with a party buff below them. Dragoon too, kind of. They have more utility than even freaking Bards. Why does party-wide Mantra share the same cooldown as -single target- Minne when they both do the same thing? The only plus about Bard's Minne is that it's +5% more healing. Oh, and Brotherhood happens to have half the cooldown of Battle Voice too. Sure, all ranged get raidwide mitigation, but all melee including Monk also get Feint with half the cooldown.

    Actually, the way support is handled this expansion needs to be taken a long look at. It feels like at this point, some classes got gutted of their support options with nothing to make up for it, while other classes didn't lose anything and gained everything from it.
    (9)
    "Consider this old adage: When a Bard sings alone in a desert, and no one is around to hear him... Is he truly singing?"

  5. #25
    Player
    Tobias_Azuryon's Avatar
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    Tobias Azuryon
    World
    Maduin
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    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoHikari View Post
    Yeah, the problem with MNK is two-pronged.

    They happen to be one of the top DPS in the game, as a class that isn't even selfish. They have more party utility than half of the classes below them, so the uproar against them is because they seemingly escaped any support tax that was placed on every other DPS with a party buff below them. Dragoon too, kind of. They have more utility than even freaking Bards. Why does party-wide Mantra share the same cooldown as -single target- Minne when they both do the same thing? The only plus about Bard's Minne is that it's +5% more healing. Oh, and Brotherhood happens to have half the cooldown of Battle Voice too. Sure, all ranged get raidwide mitigation, but all melee including Monk also get Feint with half the cooldown.

    Actually, the way support is handled this expansion needs to be taken a long look at. It feels like at this point, some classes got gutted of their support options with nothing to make up for it, while other classes didn't lose anything and gained everything from it.
    Agreed. The ideal party setup (in my eyes) is

    -Main Tank
    -Support tank/OT that can either swap or help bolster the main tank
    -2 selfish dps
    -2 support dps
    -2 healers

    It's not so clear cut and more often than not balancing spots for 4 classes out of (how many DPS do we have now @_@) is going to be hard, but that's also why people like myself fought for classes like Dancer to be Heals. Having literally everything in the DPS category stifles the designs.

    BRD and DNC should be loved for the utility they bring, but in their attempt to break the meta to not "needing" roles like NIN and stuff, we now have just "do all the damage" and that really sucks.

    I hope we get more fleshing out of support because right now classes like BRD and DNC are nerfed only to barely be used outside of casual content.
    (1)

  6. #26
    Player
    Tobias_Azuryon's Avatar
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    Tobias Azuryon
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    Maduin
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    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by dinnertime View Post
    What gives you the impression that RDM's Vercure is something worthwhile to even consider in balancing? It's insignificant. And SMN healing? You mean Physick (that doesn't even scale with INT) and Everlasting Flight which both barely do any healing? You know what's a good healing utility? Mantra. It affects the healers and it's not even a DPS loss to use.
    You're right about Mantra (thus the conversation about us wanting to nerf Monk because of its utility being that crazy). But what I'm saying is if you're going to give something the ability to heal, even if you see it as "not as good" it needs to be balanced.

    To use a simpler comparison, PLD has Clemency. It requires stopping damage to use, but it's a pretty meaty heal. Meanwhile GNB does a lot of damage but has less overall mitigation, has a discount hallowed ground, and has a regen that's kinda pointless with their brutal shell mitigation being only limited to single targets. PLD should do less damage because not only do they have a ton more mitigation and sheer "ignore damage" skills, they have a big heal that is easy to get off. And Yet PLD is pretty neck and neck with GNB. Imo GNB and WAR should be the "offensive tanks" and PLD and DRK should be the slow defensive ones. But that's for Tank topics :P

    The ability to double cast Vercure and double res is pretty notable and not really something to wave off, especially when I've literally two manned a raid/trial thanks to RDM's ability to do both, and weave their heals inbetween their casts for damage. "having vercure" sounds bad when you say it like that, sure, but put in dual cast wher eyou can "attack/heal/attack/heal/attack/heal" and that can literally save people from a wipe.

    Sure the physick skill and res may not be "Great" on SMN but they're there. Being able to res (especially with swiftcast in their kit) is not "pointless" to me.

    EDIT: If the healers die in a party with no RDM or SMN, that's a wipe. If you have those two classes you can literally recover the fight. That security SHOULD come at a cost, although like I've said before it shouldn't be as low as they currently are, agreed.
    (1)
    Last edited by Tobias_Azuryon; 09-21-2019 at 04:35 AM.

  7. #27
    Player
    dinnertime's Avatar
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    Aurelius Lyon
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon View Post
    You're right about Mantra (thus the conversation about us wanting to nerf Monk because of its utility being that crazy). But what I'm saying is if you're going to give something the ability to heal, even if you see it as "not as good" it needs to be balanced.

    To use a simpler comparison, PLD has Clemency. It requires stopping damage to use, but it's a pretty meaty heal. Meanwhile GNB does a lot of damage but has less overall mitigation, has a discount hallowed ground, and has a regen that's kinda pointless with their brutal shell mitigation being only limited to single targets. PLD should do less damage because not only do they have a ton more mitigation and sheer "ignore damage" skills, and yet is pretty neck and neck with GNB. Imo GNB and WAR should be the "offensive tanks" and PLD and DRK should be the slow defensive ones. But that's for Tank topics :P

    The ability to double cast Vercure and double res is pretty notable and not really something to wave off, especially when I've literally two manned a raid/trial thanks to RDM's ability to do both, and weave their heals inbetween their casts for damage. "having vercure" sounds bad when you say it like that, sure, but put in dual cast wher eyou can "attack/heal/attack/heal/attack/heal" and that can literally save people from a wipe.

    Sure the physick skill and res may not be "Great" on SMN but they're there. Being able to res (especially with swiftcast in their kit) is not "pointless" to me.
    The thing is...unlike tanks whose jobs are to tank and mitigate damage, RDM and SMN's job is to DPS. Using Vercure and Physick (which literally does less than 5% of your HP so it really shouldn't be considered at all in balancing) requires casting which eats a gcd so becomes detrimental to what they should be doing. Sure, RDM should be using Vercure when they absolutely need to, otherwise you should let the healers do the healing. It's not a good idea to even consider their measly heals into the balance, especially when healers have so many toolkits for healing now.

    I didn't even mention Raise since I do agree it should be considered in balancing, but right now the caster role balance is so bad and everyone is thinking that Raise is the culprit. How they balance the role due to Raise should be reconsidered.
    (1)

  8. #28
    Player
    SpeckledBurd's Avatar
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    Oct 2016
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    Ul'dah
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    Character
    K'ahli K'uhla'tor
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon View Post
    objectively better kit on Monk than SAM, with more damage and more utility. Selfish DPS should be higher because that's their only job. Sure you could put a whole group of SAMs and BLMs and nuke stuff, but that's why a fight to buff utility and balance utility and buffs better to give them more of a space in the meta is being asked for. Monk doesn't have to worry about any of that because of easy raw damage, easy combos, easy directional ignoring, and easy upkeep of buffs and groupwide buffs.
    What Sora's saying is their personal damage should be better, but their raid contribution at the maximum level should be slightly lower. If Samurai, Black Mage, and Machinist all do more Personal Damage than what a perfectly coordinate group composed of buffing jobs can, then the buffing jobs may as well not exist because the reward for significantly more difficult maximization will still be lower than facerolling a samurai.

    In theory there should be two lists in terms of performance.

    Personal Damage: With jobs like Black Mage and Samurai being at the top and jobs like Dancer and Ninja at the bottom.

    and

    Raid Contribution: Where jobs like Ninja and Dancer are marginally higher than Samurai and Black Mage by at best 100 to 200 DPS at the top end as a reward for a well coordinated group maximizing their buffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaitoHikari View Post
    Yeah, the problem with MNK is two-pronged.

    They happen to be one of the top DPS in the game, as a class that isn't even selfish. They have more party utility than half of the classes below them, so the uproar against them is because they seemingly escaped any support tax that was placed on every other DPS with a party buff below them. Dragoon too, kind of. They have more utility than even freaking Bards. Why does party-wide Mantra share the same cooldown as -single target- Minne when they both do the same thing? The only plus about Bard's Minne is that it's +5% more healing. Oh, and Brotherhood happens to have half the cooldown of Battle Voice too. Sure, all ranged get raidwide mitigation, but all melee including Monk also get Feint with half the cooldown.

    Actually, the way support is handled this expansion needs to be taken a long look at. It feels like at this point, some classes got gutted of their support options with nothing to make up for it, while other classes didn't lose anything and gained everything from it.
    Well on Brotherhood it's because the skill is just really super weak in how strong the buff is and who it buffs? Battle voice is a 20% Buff on everyone, even if it's on twice the cooldown it's still a much stronger effect, just looking at a handful of clears including some of my own it contributes 100-200 more DPS to the party than Brotherhood does over the course of a fight. As for Mantra, it's because the devs panic buffed it's range along with the other changes they made to Monk in a mad attempt at placating the players of the Job they'd just shafted for the third expansion in a row.
    (1)
    Last edited by SpeckledBurd; 09-21-2019 at 04:52 AM.

  9. #29
    Player
    Tobias_Azuryon's Avatar
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    Tobias Azuryon
    World
    Maduin
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd View Post
    What Sora's saying is their personal damage should be better, but their raid contribution at the maximum level should be slightly lower. If Samurai, Black Mage, and Machinist all do more Personal Damage than what a perfectly coordinate group composed of buffing jobs can, then the buffing jobs may as well not exist because the reward for significantly more difficult maximization will still be lower than facerolling a samurai.

    In theory there should be two lists in terms of performance.

    Personal Damage: With jobs like Black Mage and Samurai being at the top and jobs like Dancer and Ninja at the bottom.

    and

    Raid Contribution: Where jobs like Ninja and Dancer are marginally higher than Samurai and Black Mage by at best 100 to 200 DPS at the top end as a reward for a well coordinated group maximizing their buffs.
    I see that point, and believe that utility should come in more flavors than just buffing damage to begin with. Which, again, Monk has. It can buff healing and dps for physical attackers every 90seconds and without breaking its stride. It's busted. That's why Monk being as high as it is (and that's ignoring their use of "but directionals" which is practically nonexistent in ShB) makes the conversation bad to begin with.

    A selfish DPS should do more damage than a non-selfish dps, but then the utility dps should be able to buff not only the main selfish dps but also the entire party, raising everyone's dps and/or buffing heals or other capabilities (mp regen, tank bolstering, etc).

    You "can" run a party with all BLMs now, but we don't because there are other play styles, other mechanics and other things we all like to do. This theoretical "god dps" already technically exists and yet isn't the only choice in parties. So I don't know where that conversation is leading.
    (1)
    Last edited by Tobias_Azuryon; 09-21-2019 at 04:53 AM.

  10. #30
    Player
    Tobias_Azuryon's Avatar
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    Tobias Azuryon
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    Maduin
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    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by dinnertime View Post
    The thing is...unlike tanks whose jobs are to tank and mitigate damage, RDM and SMN's job is to DPS. Using Vercure and Physick (which literally does less than 5% of your HP so it really shouldn't be considered at all in balancing) requires casting which eats a gcd so becomes detrimental to what they should be doing. Sure, RDM should be using Vercure when they absolutely need to, otherwise you should let the healers do the healing. It's not a good idea to even consider their measly heals into the balance, especially when healers have so many toolkits for healing now.

    I didn't even mention Raise since I do agree it should be considered in balancing, but right now the caster role balance is so bad and everyone is thinking that Raise is the culprit. How they balance the role due to Raise should be reconsidered.
    I can see your point and concede that heals shouldn't be weighted as much as res, definitely. I can see where you're coming from. That's also why I said that current meta being healers having so many kits and so little damage dealing and stuff messes with this too because now healers don't really "need" help. But that's another tangent entirely.
    (1)

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