Suggestion for: RDM improvements

[Mhaeric]

Why? The elemental spells all generate more mana than their equivalent balance spells, and it's only the base spells in the single target rotation that are ordered in the rotation from lowest to highest mana generated. The AoE and finisher spells are all used in order of lower dps/higher mana ---> higher dps/lower mana. It also makes sense to me that the balance spells are slightly less potent in terms of generating mana due to being generalist spells while the focused spells are more efficient at generating mana due to their focus.

[Shurrikhan]

Why? The elemental spells all generate more mana than their equivalent balance spells, and it's only the base spells in the single target rotation that are ordered in the rotation from lowest to highest mana generated. The AoE and finisher spells are all used in order of lower dps/higher mana ---> higher dps/lower mana. It also makes sense to me that the balance spells are slightly less potent in terms of generating mana due to being generalist spells while the focused spells are more efficient at generating mana due to their focus.

That wasn't true of Impact when it was a single-target spell. Its combined mana gain was higher than Veraero or Verthunder.

Thus, we have no precedent for "A single-element spell must always contribute more mana than the sum of a dual-element spell's contributions." Impulse broke that rule, if ever it was a thing.

But, let's say we remove Impulse. No old Impulse, nor the new Impulse yet. At that point we'd have made firm another rule, "Long casts generate more mana (combined) than short casts."

In which case... why does new Impulse, a long cast, generate less MP combined than Verthunder II or Veraero II, each short casts?

Edit: My bad there; for some reason I could have sworn old Impact generated 6/6.

[SaberMaxwell]

That wasn't true of Impact when it was a single-target spell. Its combined mana gain was higher than Veraero or Verthunder.

No, Impact generated 4/4, or 8. Verfire generates 0/9, and Veraero generates 11/0.

[Mhaeric]

That wasn't true of Impact when it was a single-target spell. Its combined mana gain was higher than Veraero or Verthunder.

Thus, we have no precedent for "A single-element spell must always contribute more mana than the sum of a dual-element spell's contributions." Impulse broke that rule, if ever it was a thing.

But, let's say we remove Impulse. No old Impulse, nor the new Impluse yet. At that point we'd have made firm another rule, "Long casts generate more mana (combined) than short casts."

In which case... why does new Impulse, a long cast, generate less MP combined than Verthunder II or Veraero II, each short casts?

As the previous poster listed, Jolt/Jolt II/Impact always generated less mana than all of the Verspells. Old Jolt was 3/3, Impact was 4/4, Verfire/stone were 9, and Verthunder/aero were 11. The only sort of exception to this was Enchanced Scatter which occured 30% of the time after casting Scatter and gave 10/10 instead of 3/3 for an effective average potency of 4.05/4.05 per GCD. I say sort of exception because there wasn't any AoE elemental spell to compare it to so it existed it its own little bubble of mana gain and the occasional 10/10 didn't actually increase the average potency of the spell that much despite seeming to be such a huge number.

[Archwizard]

As the previous poster listed, Jolt/Jolt II/Impact always generated less mana than all of the Verspells.

But not Original Scatter. 3/3 Mana with a 30% chance of 7/7 extra yielded an average of 5.1/5.1 Mana per cast, which once put it as our highest yield short-cast spell (and would put it worth using in single-target if Enhanced popped before then -- which could be kind of an interesting proc now that I think of it, actually, if it buffed Jolt but was procced by other spells).
However, the actual yield isn't my concern since we had Moulinet's cost reduced anyway.

While you are right that Veraero/Verthunder have always generated more Mana per cast than Red spells, the important thing is that before now there also were no long-cast Red spells, which the new Impact outright defies.
It's a curiosity, then, both that a tradeoff for the greater potency per cast is a reduced Mana income (which is not something we face in the main rotation), and that our AoE quickcasts generate more Mana per cast than Jolt.

As I said, unnecessary and largely fueled by personal opinion, I just think it's strange and slightly weakens the impact of... well, Impact.

[Mhaeric]

But not Original Scatter. 3/3 Mana with a 30% chance of 7/7 extra yielded an average of 5.1/5.1 Mana per cast, which once put it as our highest yield short-cast spell (and would put it worth using in single-target if Enhanced popped before then -- which could be kind of an interesting proc now that I think of it, actually, if it buffed Jolt but was procced by other spells).

Wrong. The average per cast was 4.05/4.05 per GCD because Enhanced Scatter could not proc itself. It alternated between a guaranteed 3/3 on one GCD and an average of 5.1/5.1 on the second for an overall average of 4.05/4.05 per GCD. This is less than even the weakest Verspell.

While you are right that Veraero/Verthunder have always generated more Mana per cast than Red spells, the important thing is that before now there also were no long-cast Red spells, which the new Impact outright defies.
It's a curiosity, then, both that a tradeoff for the greater potency per cast is a reduced Mana income (which is not something we face in the main rotation), and that our AoE quickcasts generate more Mana per cast than Jolt.

As I said, unnecessary and largely fueled by personal opinion, I just think it's strange and slightly weakens the impact of... well, Impact.

You're completely ignoring Verflare/holy into Scorch which is the identical situation to the AoE rotation. Also, if Impact doing almost twice the damage of Verthunder/aero 2 isn't impactful enough for you then I don't know what to say. It makes complete sense that mana type focused spells generate more mana because of that focus and the generalist spells don't. It's practically a trope.

[Kabooa]

Wrong. The average per cast was 4.05/4.05 per GCD because Enhanced Scatter could not proc itself. It alternated between a guaranteed 3/3 on one GCD and an average of 5.1/5.1 on the second for an overall average of 4.05/4.05 per GCD. This is less than even the weakest Verspell.

Enhanced Scatter could proc itself.

[Archwizard]

because Enhanced Scatter could not proc itself.

You either are misinformed or must've had bad luck, 'cuz it frequently procced itself as Kabooa said. My calculations remain intact.

And even if it didn't, I'm fairly certain your math is incorrect.

You're completely ignoring Verflare/holy into Scorch which is the identical situation to the AoE rotation.

You're right, because Scorch is a very new addition that doesn't actually change anything I said about never having had longcast Red spells before, making it nonsequitur to my actual point.
Besides, if we peel apart Verflare/holy then that leaves the question of whether their procs come into the equation, which splits their total value over two GCDs; I don't want to start that debate, which is why I left them out.

Also, if Impact doing almost twice the damage of Verthunder/aero 2 isn't impactful enough for you then I don't know what to say.

But that's part of what I mean though -- we get more damage out but we also slow down our Moulinet rotation at the same time. Only by 0.5 Mana per GCD on average, which is tolerable, but still noticeable when generating such small amounts to begin with.

And again... I said it was just personal opinion about the "feel" of the job. There is no functional need to debate this, unless it personally offends your headcanon.