Suggestion for: RDM improvements

[wereotter]

On any other job (especially Black Mage, I learned my lesson) this could be considered a "trap option", but as RDM advertises itself as some form of hybrid job, that type of "balance" between healing and destruction is... kind of the cornerstone of its existence, no?

The thing is when you look at the actual red mage package.... it has 8 single target damage dealing spells, 7 physical abilities (counting the enchanted melee combo since it has to be used in close range), and 2 healing abilities.

The ability to swift cast and dual cast verraises has really hurt the job from being able to evolve as well as hurt the identity of the job since that's how people talk about it. So I feel like an alternative to verraise should be some other utility ability. The main white magic spells I can think of that would make sense to have share that cooldown would be something like protect or shell or even esuna. Though since they're unlikely to add skills to the job until a major expansion, the buff would likely come with the charge system like you mentioned. 2 minutes is too short a cool down for this to make much difference, since that would mean you would have been expected to perform three raises in less than two minutes, something our mana already limits from doing in many cases. Something closer to a 5-7 minute cool down on the skill would be more realistic, limiting you to maybe three raises in a fight.

[Shurrikhan]

The thing is when you look at the actual red mage package.... it has 8 single target damage dealing spells, 7 physical abilities (counting the enchanted melee combo since it has to be used in close range), and 2 healing abilities.

Which together form a single optimal ranged action past the first GCD, a rotational (formerly) physical option, a situational (formerly) physical option, a situational healing option (Verraise) and an incredibly niche situational healing option (Vercure).

Our largest decisions are "Do I E. Riposte now or in another two GCDs?" and "Can I position correctly for Disengage in time?"

Also, a 5-7 minute cooldown on Verraise would put us waaay behind SMN, which no longer has any use for SC outside of Resurrection. What would you be doing about them?

...And why? Is there even any point in keeping Raise on casters at all if locked behind a 5-minute CD?

Historically, there has been no Raise tax. SMN has outperformed BLM in rDPS despite having Raise and far superior mobility until near the end of every expansion prior to this one. And in late SB, a max-parse RDM was almost dead even with a BLM when each playing as sole casters.

[Kabooa]

Historically, there has been no Raise tax.

Yeah.

And that isn't a good thing.

It's a polarizing utility, and you need only apply a "No raise tax" mindset, give it to one job in other roles while providing no alternative, and see how immediately that upsets balance within those roles. In a no-tax landscape, there's zero reason to not bring it if it's available, and those who don't have it are immediately at a disadvantage.

[wereotter]

Two, hybridization doesn't necessarily mean a strict 50/50 (or in this case, 33/33/33) split. If that were plausible we'd be seeing either spammable oGCD heals, every spell having some kind of supportive function, or just a ton of pointless copies of healer-specific tools that we would avoid as much as we already do Cure. We don't need to inflate our kit with Veresuna, Vermedica, a barrier and an extra tier of healing spell to be a "hybrid", you'd need all that to be a healer (with a lot of DPS tools).
The fact that we have a semi-potent Cure and standard Raise is, in itself, a massive step towards a more supportive function than most jobs ever get, particularly with regards to our ability to use insta-Raise multiple times in quick succession.

The summoner toolkit, at this point, has about as much healing as the red mage toolkit with the difference being red mage, if vercure is ever needed for anything other than procing dualcast when a boss jumps, is on demand while the phoenix summon regen is a natural part of their rotation, basically healing utility provided for simply doing their job.

However, my point was more to comment on the fact that the job doesn't really feel like a hybrid job when you consider that comparison. Or at least it doesn't to me. It may feel that way to you, and that's fine, this is entirely a matter of opinion, and nothing you've said so far changes mine, nor do I expect I'll change yours.

Yeah.

And that isn't a good thing.

It's a polarizing utility, and you need only apply a "No raise tax" mindset, give it to one job in other roles while providing no alternative, and see how immediately that upsets balance within those roles. In a no-tax landscape, there's zero reason to not bring it if it's available, and those who don't have it are immediately at a disadvantage.

Raise is a utility that they've over taxed is the problem. I'm fine with a tax on damage for jobs that provide more utility. I've been in savage runs that turned into clears because I was a red mage and able to pull up both healers who had died. So I get that there are times when the utility of the job does make a difference. The question is how much is a raise on a job worth? Because right now that answer is over 2,000 DPS. This is enough that some party finders are explicitly excluding the job, and when that happens, it's not good for people who are playing it.

Additionally it's not good for the caster role if you have one person who is expected to master two jobs. One for progression and one for clearing. The damage a black mage does should be higher than its other casting counterparts because it does not provide any utility, however the amount they currently seem to think is okay is definitely not okay when you look at the player base.

[Archwizard]

Raise is a utility that they've over taxed is the problem. I'm fine with a tax on damage for jobs that provide more utility. I've been in savage runs that turned into clears because I was a red mage and able to pull up both healers who had died. So I get that there are times when the utility of the job does make a difference. The question is how much is a raise on a job worth? Because right now that answer is over 2,000 DPS. This is enough that some party finders are explicitly excluding the job, and when that happens, it's not good for people who are playing it.

Additionally it's not good for the caster role if you have one person who is expected to master two jobs. One for progression and one for clearing. The damage a black mage does should be higher than its other casting counterparts because it does not provide any utility, however the amount they currently seem to think is okay is definitely not okay when you look at the player base.

... which is why my suggestion is to allow the Red Mage to dynamically choose where they wish to stand on that line -- the ability to either Raise, or give up that utility value for the current encounter to pump out more damage.

[Archwizard]

The thing is when you look at the actual red mage package.... it has 8 single target damage dealing spells, 7 physical abilities (counting the enchanted melee combo since it has to be used in close range), and 2 healing abilities.

Couple things.

One, including the enchanted combo in the definition of "physical skills" makes it broad enough to cover both "ranged attacks that deal physical damage" and "melee attacks that do magic damage", plus whatever Reprise is, which are kinda diametrically opposed (and those types of ideologically inverted skills should exist in a hybrid anyway). You're also ignoring the origins of those spells, our AoEs, and the frequency of use for each skill -- by your numbers we should be a half-melee job.

Two, hybridization doesn't necessarily mean a strict 50/50 (or in this case, 33/33/33) split. If that were plausible we'd be seeing either spammable oGCD heals, every spell having some kind of supportive function, or just a ton of pointless copies of healer-specific tools that we would avoid as much as we already do Cure. We don't need to inflate our kit with Veresuna, Vermedica, a barrier and an extra tier of healing spell to be a "hybrid", you'd need all that to be a healer (with a lot of DPS tools).
The fact that we have a semi-potent Cure and standard Raise is, in itself, a massive step towards a more supportive function than most jobs ever get, particularly with regards to our ability to use insta-Raise multiple times in quick succession.

So I feel like an alternative to verraise should be some other utility ability.

Then you have completely missed the point of my suggestion.

It's not "hey we should have a replacement for Verraise while still retaining a support role," but rather it's "we should be able to choose whether or not to be taxed for a support role we may not actually dip into, and ascertain what the actual DPS value is of Verraise if the devs intend to hit us so hard for having it."