Suggestion for: RDM improvements

[Archwizard]

I had something of a revelation last night.

So, one of the things I used to advocate for for Black Mage was having some form of group utility skill (like a damage vulnerability curse on enemies), but locked behind the Polyglot system: a forced choice between personal burst damage or helping the group. This got shot down many times for obvious reasons -- "BLM shouldn't have utility" being the loudest, followed by "you'll just default to using whichever one is more useful for your group comp" -- and after Shadowbringers expanded on the Polyglot system in a different direction, I scrapped it.

A more recent suggestion I have been making relevant to Red Mage, for the purpose of addressing the so-called "Verraise Tax", has been to put instant Verraise on a fixed cooldown with a multi-charge system attached, both to limit its usage in light of Dualcast to balance against healers/SMN, and generally reduce its utility value to justify bringing its damage value up. My typical example has been 2 charges on a 2-5 minute cooldown -- enough to call it an alternative to Swift-Raises, while retaining that element of rapidly casting multiple times in succession to revive key allies.
However, a consideration is that Verraise has no fixed "value" towards DPS, largely because it may not ever even be used in a fight (and if so, not even necessarily on another damage-dealer), yet this so-called "tax" is applied at all times just on the potential of having it, penalizing us after progression.

But what if we married those two ideas? What if the solution isn't to weaken Verraise to justify a buff, but rather, to provide an alternative to Verraise as a buff?
A means for the devs to give a fixed damage value to Raise utility...?

Consider this prototype for a moment: Verraise on the aforementioned charge system... but sharing charges with a substantial personal damage skill, much like Displacement and Engagement. Could even be a Black Magic inspired skill, why not?
If you effectively burn all of those charges on this hypothetical damage skill, your overall raid damage potential (after Embolden) is raised to just a bit behind BLM (so BLM still stays "superior" on raw damage for lack of even potential utility) -- but then you have no charges with which to Verraise.
Alternatively, you can choose to save those charges specifically for Verraises, and your damage potential (while perhaps elevated from now due to the lower overall Raise potential) is... not crippled per se, but more what you'd expect from a DPS paying a "Verraise Tax". Maybe a bit behind Summoner?
Now, we could of course advance this by taking the lead of examples of alternate resource systems like (fittingly) the Lily Gauge or Polyglot as some expansion of the Balance Gauge, and then having Verraise be one option to consume from that, but I'm not entirely sure that's necessary to get the point across (and having to generate a Verraise in-combat might be an annoying extra limiter).

Risk, reward: two elements that Red Mage has sorely lacked thus far. And what's a bigger risk than the potential waste our most powerful utility, which has generated such debate?
On any other job (especially Black Mage, I learned my lesson) this could be considered a "trap option", but as RDM advertises itself as some form of hybrid job, that type of "balance" between healing and destruction is... kind of the cornerstone of its existence, no?

[wereotter]

On any other job (especially Black Mage, I learned my lesson) this could be considered a "trap option", but as RDM advertises itself as some form of hybrid job, that type of "balance" between healing and destruction is... kind of the cornerstone of its existence, no?

The thing is when you look at the actual red mage package.... it has 8 single target damage dealing spells, 7 physical abilities (counting the enchanted melee combo since it has to be used in close range), and 2 healing abilities.

The ability to swift cast and dual cast verraises has really hurt the job from being able to evolve as well as hurt the identity of the job since that's how people talk about it. So I feel like an alternative to verraise should be some other utility ability. The main white magic spells I can think of that would make sense to have share that cooldown would be something like protect or shell or even esuna. Though since they're unlikely to add skills to the job until a major expansion, the buff would likely come with the charge system like you mentioned. 2 minutes is too short a cool down for this to make much difference, since that would mean you would have been expected to perform three raises in less than two minutes, something our mana already limits from doing in many cases. Something closer to a 5-7 minute cool down on the skill would be more realistic, limiting you to maybe three raises in a fight.

[Shurrikhan]

The thing is when you look at the actual red mage package.... it has 8 single target damage dealing spells, 7 physical abilities (counting the enchanted melee combo since it has to be used in close range), and 2 healing abilities.

Which together form a single optimal ranged action past the first GCD, a rotational (formerly) physical option, a situational (formerly) physical option, a situational healing option (Verraise) and an incredibly niche situational healing option (Vercure).

Our largest decisions are "Do I E. Riposte now or in another two GCDs?" and "Can I position correctly for Disengage in time?"

Also, a 5-7 minute cooldown on Verraise would put us waaay behind SMN, which no longer has any use for SC outside of Resurrection. What would you be doing about them?

...And why? Is there even any point in keeping Raise on casters at all if locked behind a 5-minute CD?

Historically, there has been no Raise tax. SMN has outperformed BLM in rDPS despite having Raise and far superior mobility until near the end of every expansion prior to this one. And in late SB, a max-parse RDM was almost dead even with a BLM when each playing as sole casters.

[Kabooa]

Historically, there has been no Raise tax.

Yeah.

And that isn't a good thing.

It's a polarizing utility, and you need only apply a "No raise tax" mindset, give it to one job in other roles while providing no alternative, and see how immediately that upsets balance within those roles. In a no-tax landscape, there's zero reason to not bring it if it's available, and those who don't have it are immediately at a disadvantage.

[Archwizard]

The thing is when you look at the actual red mage package.... it has 8 single target damage dealing spells, 7 physical abilities (counting the enchanted melee combo since it has to be used in close range), and 2 healing abilities.

Couple things.

One, including the enchanted combo in the definition of "physical skills" makes it broad enough to cover both "ranged attacks that deal physical damage" and "melee attacks that do magic damage", plus whatever Reprise is, which are kinda diametrically opposed (and those types of ideologically inverted skills should exist in a hybrid anyway). You're also ignoring the origins of those spells, our AoEs, and the frequency of use for each skill -- by your numbers we should be a half-melee job.

Two, hybridization doesn't necessarily mean a strict 50/50 (or in this case, 33/33/33) split. If that were plausible we'd be seeing either spammable oGCD heals, every spell having some kind of supportive function, or just a ton of pointless copies of healer-specific tools that we would avoid as much as we already do Cure. We don't need to inflate our kit with Veresuna, Vermedica, a barrier and an extra tier of healing spell to be a "hybrid", you'd need all that to be a healer (with a lot of DPS tools).
The fact that we have a semi-potent Cure and standard Raise is, in itself, a massive step towards a more supportive function than most jobs ever get, particularly with regards to our ability to use insta-Raise multiple times in quick succession.

So I feel like an alternative to verraise should be some other utility ability.

Then you have completely missed the point of my suggestion.

It's not "hey we should have a replacement for Verraise while still retaining a support role," but rather it's "we should be able to choose whether or not to be taxed for a support role we may not actually dip into, and ascertain what the actual DPS value is of Verraise if the devs intend to hit us so hard for having it."

[Mansion]

I'm not sure I'm following you because decision making is already what happens in SMN / RDM's adaptation to a given "Raise" situation.

The big problem is how severely punishing "raising tax" is to RDM and SMN's performance currently, when raising does not happen that often, and is not so much of a game-saver (as it usually leads to enrage in early prog/low gear runs). Raising is mainly healers' job, so there are two raises before considering sacrificing one GCD (and perhaps some MP) for SMN and RDM. Having a dead healer is another niche situation which cannot weigh so much in the balance.
In the case of RDM, chain raising is even more a self regulation as it's hard on the MP.

My point is that Raising should not be considered so severely for balancing DPS, especially if it leads to scraping out a bit of identity to these jobs; in the current state of fight design it does not mean anything anymore. For me RDM (and SMN) balance should be balanced around mobility, rotation difficulty, optimization and their party buffs more than raising.

[wereotter]

Two, hybridization doesn't necessarily mean a strict 50/50 (or in this case, 33/33/33) split. If that were plausible we'd be seeing either spammable oGCD heals, every spell having some kind of supportive function, or just a ton of pointless copies of healer-specific tools that we would avoid as much as we already do Cure. We don't need to inflate our kit with Veresuna, Vermedica, a barrier and an extra tier of healing spell to be a "hybrid", you'd need all that to be a healer (with a lot of DPS tools).
The fact that we have a semi-potent Cure and standard Raise is, in itself, a massive step towards a more supportive function than most jobs ever get, particularly with regards to our ability to use insta-Raise multiple times in quick succession.

The summoner toolkit, at this point, has about as much healing as the red mage toolkit with the difference being red mage, if vercure is ever needed for anything other than procing dualcast when a boss jumps, is on demand while the phoenix summon regen is a natural part of their rotation, basically healing utility provided for simply doing their job.

However, my point was more to comment on the fact that the job doesn't really feel like a hybrid job when you consider that comparison. Or at least it doesn't to me. It may feel that way to you, and that's fine, this is entirely a matter of opinion, and nothing you've said so far changes mine, nor do I expect I'll change yours.

Yeah.

And that isn't a good thing.

It's a polarizing utility, and you need only apply a "No raise tax" mindset, give it to one job in other roles while providing no alternative, and see how immediately that upsets balance within those roles. In a no-tax landscape, there's zero reason to not bring it if it's available, and those who don't have it are immediately at a disadvantage.

Raise is a utility that they've over taxed is the problem. I'm fine with a tax on damage for jobs that provide more utility. I've been in savage runs that turned into clears because I was a red mage and able to pull up both healers who had died. So I get that there are times when the utility of the job does make a difference. The question is how much is a raise on a job worth? Because right now that answer is over 2,000 DPS. This is enough that some party finders are explicitly excluding the job, and when that happens, it's not good for people who are playing it.

Additionally it's not good for the caster role if you have one person who is expected to master two jobs. One for progression and one for clearing. The damage a black mage does should be higher than its other casting counterparts because it does not provide any utility, however the amount they currently seem to think is okay is definitely not okay when you look at the player base.

[Archwizard]

Raise is a utility that they've over taxed is the problem. I'm fine with a tax on damage for jobs that provide more utility. I've been in savage runs that turned into clears because I was a red mage and able to pull up both healers who had died. So I get that there are times when the utility of the job does make a difference. The question is how much is a raise on a job worth? Because right now that answer is over 2,000 DPS. This is enough that some party finders are explicitly excluding the job, and when that happens, it's not good for people who are playing it.

Additionally it's not good for the caster role if you have one person who is expected to master two jobs. One for progression and one for clearing. The damage a black mage does should be higher than its other casting counterparts because it does not provide any utility, however the amount they currently seem to think is okay is definitely not okay when you look at the player base.

... which is why my suggestion is to allow the Red Mage to dynamically choose where they wish to stand on that line -- the ability to either Raise, or give up that utility value for the current encounter to pump out more damage.

[Havelocke]

The raise issue is such a red hearing. The act of using raise - even instantly - significantly reduces a Red Mage's damage so the price is paid when the ability is used. Players who play RDM understand that is the trade of for using the skill, so imho it shouldn't be used as justification by others to continue the status quo.

I think RDMs do need a tweak to remain competitive. My suggested tweak would be to give Verthunder and Verareo a 100% chance to proc Verfire and Verstone - basically what they did with Machinist.

That would give a boost to dps and make the RDM skills flow better.

[SaberMaxwell]

I think RDMs do need a tweak to remain competitive. My suggested tweak would be to give Verthunder and Verareo a 100% chance to proc Verfire and Verstone - basically what they did with Machinist.

That would give a boost to dps and make the RDM skills flow better.

The suggested tweak would basically delete Jolt 2 from the kit lol

Actually not even basically, there'd be no reason to ever use Jolt 2. You precast a 5s spell, and every downtime where procs could fall off you use vercure to proc a dualcast to use a 5s spell with. Though if they did this, and reduced the proc time to 5s or 10s or something, it could create its own "enochian" style mechanic where you want to keep Verfire and Verstone Ready up almost the whole fight at pain of needing to use the inferior Jolt 2...

You know what, after some thought, that'd be a neat little tweak. I like it. 100% chance to get Fire/Stone Ready, but reduce the timer to somewhere between 5s and 10s and make that RDM's minigame. Maybe edit Acceleration to extend existing buffs by 5s and/or grant both buffs, act as RDM's version of "Flourish." Verflare and Verholy's granting of the buffs would need to be examined as well.