NIN in 5.1

**Vendalwind** · 09-20-2019 08:46 AM

Nin should, with how abilities and utility is currently spread, have the highest RDPS at high percentiles. And lowest RDPS at low percentile given the fluction of his buff (of melee classes)

But at any percentile he should have the lowest ADPS of any melee.

Currently melee are decrntly balanced with the exception of monk. But in a perfect balance world my initial two statements should be true.

And dont you say this shouldnt be true because of trick. Trick is a damage utility buff. It it doesnt provide more damage than other classes without, then it is a pointless buff that adds extra difficulty to the whole team with no actual reward. Nin has no current utility outside of damage utility.

**MerlinCross** · 09-20-2019 08:50 AM

Just revert the aggro changes and we’ll be in demand again

**TheWinterSakura** · 11-04-2019 02:37 AM

So this is just my opinion but the new 5.1 NIN update kinda ruined my main class and made the game not as fun.

First off, they changed it to where you cant cue up Mundras while doing combos. What makes NIN and Rogue fun is that you’re always quickly pressing buttons. It can be confusing and ‘clunky’ for sure to be using mundras and combos and the like but if you wanted a structured class move to Samurai or literally any other class. Not saying ninja wouldnt use reform. Now Ninja is just a boring combo mundras combo mundras combo mundras combo mundras combo mundras style fight.

They even removed Shadow Fang from the combos so now you only have 1 combo path. And before Shadow fang didnt stack so there was no harm in repeatedly being able to use it especially since its potency was only 200 it was actually a waste to use it too much. But it was nice when running dungeons and smaller enemies to be able to use it each new enemy instead of getting to use it for one enemy then waiting 60 seconds, beating 7 enemies and then getting to use it again for just minuscule amounts of damage.
Although this one doesnt bother me as much as slowing down the ninja actions. It does make the ninja more boring.

Although I can agree Ninja could use some reform, making it slowed down and making it to where you have to follow a set pattern, combo mundras combo mundras without even variations in the combo (and lets be real only the lightning mundras is useful in most situations or the water one. So you’re not really doing much there.) really slowed down ninja. Rogues are suppose to be quick and unpredictable, yet now it has a very structured slow and boring key pattern. I can concede ninja is a little awkward but honestly its just a problem for people who don’t main the class. For people who actually main the class being able to cue up mundras and switch up combos is the best part of playing a Rogue or Ninja class.

I am curious to hear other people’s opinions, although please note if you are a Nin main or other main because I think that makes a difference.

**Vendalwind** · 11-04-2019 04:26 AM

I overall enjoy the changes. Have been a nin main since release of nin (yes even in 5.0 i refused to switch)

We are still the highest cpm class. But by a smaller margin now.

Latency effects us way less.

Planning and properly holding during downtime/non trick is still involved especially in planning specific fights

We are become what i hoped as a hybrid melee. (I constantly say i want 2 more melee classes added that are hybrid melee so melee can be split like ranged and caster were into melee/hybrid) by properly learning fights we can basically have 100% gcd uptime now once we learn to hold ninjutsus right.

Damage still needs at least a week to see where 5.1 sets us, but it feels good enough to me right now.

Our burst is better than ever.

My big and only serious complaints are:

SkS still sucks. About 30% of our gcd time is uneffected by sks. I think all out gcd moves should be effected by sks but at the least: If not the .5 second mudra casts, the 1.5 ninjutsu casts and the 1 second casts mid tcj should be effected by sks. So what if it means players might clip weaving after a ninjutsu. Now thats their choice. Shadowfang which should be effected well by sks is not because it cant be kept up anymore and even with high sks its a loss via drift from trick if used to full potential.
Bunshin which should have been the most sks effected skill is now completely disconnected from it since it has a set 5 charges.
Its just bad and that upsets me greatly. I want to be a speedy ninja.

Movement away from blade play and rogue type of combat.

Despite planning that has to be done the 45seconds of non trick are.... pretty boring. Not crazy boring but. Yeah not exciting either.

**Duskane** · 09-20-2019 09:46 AM

If you like how unuser friendly mudra's are
Safe bet to say you won't enjoy NIN and say they "dumbed down" the job

**MerlinCross** · 09-20-2019 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Duskane

If you like how unuser friendly mudra's are
Safe bet to say you won't enjoy NIN and say they "dumbed down" the job

I mean I'm not the biggest fan of the Mudras but at the same time they're also a decent core part of Ninja. But hey they removed Dark Arts so they can also go into delete bin.

**Tobias_Azuryon** · 09-21-2019 01:39 AM

If mudras were easier to deal with and pressing so many buttons resulted in more DPS than I'd be happy with where it's at, but unfortunately the class is literally fighting itself currently.

You have one side of the class which is the speedy high intensity DPS class meant to test your reaction timing and dealing with server ping.

And then you have the melee dps that's meant to debuff for other people.

Given that all of their utility from SB is gone now thanks to aggro management being nonexistent and trick attack being even less of a window than the TRUST npc version (lol) I think they have to just make a call on which they want NIN to be. Right now Monk has more easily accessible dps buff (that's also AOE) for physical attackers and a healer buff. The entire idea of basing rotations and everything around TRick Attack but then nerfing a class for Trick attack is good in theory, but then you look at Ninja's ridiculous kit compared to like Monk which really only has to hit 6 keys in sequence to easily out dps it.

It's not that NIN is "hard" so much as overly complicated and the problem comes from "What is the payoff for all this complication" and if it meant getting rid of RDPS or TA to get NIN where it should be (below DRG but higher than Monk unless NIN has the same nerfed utility MONK has) I'd welcome the change.

Right now I have to hit 30 buttons, open, hope that the server doesn't shit the bed in the middle of my rotation, stand in place to get another combo off which can easily go on a ridiculously long cooldown if an AOE hits, and that skill level is rewarded with "Okay" dps. The 5.1 patch did some good bandaid fixes but right now I'd say the identity of NIN is still at odds with the balancing they're trying to do for the classes.

tl;dr NIN needs to be hard to play but rewarding to pull off resulting in more dps (or more rdps or debuffs) or it needs to have its kit bolstered again around team buffs and/or utility. Right now the only reason it does such low damage is "Trick attack" and I think that's pretty shitty when classes like Monk and DRG have the kits they do.

**Tex_Mex** · 09-21-2019 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

tl;dr NIN needs to be hard to play but rewarding to pull off resulting in more dps (or more rdps or debuffs) or it needs to have its kit bolstered again around team buffs and/or utility. Right now the only reason it does such low damage is "Trick attack" and I think that's pretty shitty when classes like Monk and DRG have the kits they do.

I see your point, and I agree with a good portion of it, but the reason I'm scared is because I don't want the changes they implement to make the job easy. There are already enough easy jobs to play, and one of the main reasons I play NIN is because I enjoy the challenge it provides. As far as utility, I agree completely. Jobs like MNK which have huge personal DPS should not be given additional offensive utility. Oddly enough, it seems like SE is really trying to get away from DPS bringing additional utility to raids in ShB. Just look at BRD. It started as a DPS job that had a ton of support (it even had the healer LB early on) and its now just a ranger without a pet lol.

**UfoCoffee** · 09-28-2019 03:56 AM

I play NIN as i like the challenge, but i enjoy rewarding and enjoyable challenges. Not badly designed ones.

**IruruCece** · 09-27-2019 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

If mudras were easier to deal with and pressing so many buttons resulted in more DPS than I'd be happy with where it's at, but unfortunately the class is literally fighting itself currently.

This whole post is good, in particular the bit about "complexity" and "reward."

I took ninja to 70 in Stormblood, and it wasn't the easiest job to learn. But it felt satisfying to finally "get" an opener down. Weaving in ninjutsu with my combos, even at my awkward skill level, felt like it was the way the job was meant to be. And when I was actually on top of things, it felt like I could at least keep pace with other heavy hitters. I was hardly the best at it, but it felt good to play. When I have time to play more I'd like to return to the job again, but it's disheartening to me to see the job in its current state.

Jobs that demand more out of a player should be able to post solid results when played well. If they struggle to do this, all that complexity means nothing. MMOs are about numbers in the end, and complexity (or lack thereof) are all in service to the numbers when it comes down to it.

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Boring now. Too structured and slow. Ruined what makes a rogue class unique.