Concept for a Magic Melee DPS

[Archwizard]

I like the beastmaster idea.

But for healer, what about an elementalist? Someone who draws on the elements for his/her heals? Maybe even the weather could change the aesthetics of the spell graphics?

Idk. I think it would be cool.

Not sure any of those fall under "Magic Melee DPS" so it's a bit off-topic from the thread.

But while we're on the subject:

- I fully expect Beastmaster to be a Ranged Physical DPS Limited Job based around catching pets and summoning them to use enemy techniques, stabling them when not in use, not unlike BLU and its spellbook.
Whips, baby.

- "Elementalist" is another name for Geomancer, which I expect could only be implemented separately from WHM as a bell-ringing Caster DPS focused on the Earth/Wind/Water offensive skills WHM will never use. Maybe dip into Fire magic for their ultimate skills, since Swallow's Compass has the "Heart of the Dragon" featuring a fire-elemental auspice. Geomancers are a job based on Feng Shui, where the tradition holds that dragons (metaphorically) live beneath the land, making fire magic appropriate.
Something sort of like BLM in many ways, where the job is focused on maintaining a rooted position as often as possible and doesn't provide any kind of Rez skill. Unlike BLM it could drop totems or cleanse patches of earth to buff allies, perhaps even briefly summon elemental spirits to attack; unlike Conjurers, Geomancers use their powers to repel or subdue spirits of the land, and as we've seen in Swallow's Compass, that includes commanding them.
I've been tossing around the idea of GEO having an AoE combo where they use Tornado to pull enemies into one spot, Quake to keep them in place and Flood to burst them down. Perhaps drop a volcanic Eruption spell in there.

- Personally for a healer, I'd like to see Necromancer. An occultist, scythe-wielding Battle Healer job that focuses on draining and redistributing life from enemies to heal allies, while cursing foes, sacrificing minions, and granting allies variant Undead statuses (like Vampire or Ghost) to increase their survivability. Maybe even see one that can throw out Death, now that Urianger has opened that floodgate (I know he's an AST, but NPCs use different rules and he already has Aetherial Manipulation from BLM).
Just... something completely different from any existing healer.

[Vendalwind]

That being said, even if swords are "overdone" by some standards, it is worth pointing out that A) there are multiple styles of swordplay the world over, enough that various weapons classified as "swords" can look and be used completely differently (such as, say, the Khopesh versus the Schiavona), and B) only about half of the jobs with swords actually focus on swordplay and technique, versus just awkwardly slashing around.

Given the Middle Eastern-inspired appearance of the Spellblade in FF5, BD, and various side-entries, I would say the most appropriate weapon-type for them would be curved swords (which FF11 treated with enough distinction to make the purview purely of BLU), such as Scimitars, Falchions, Sabers, Shamshirs, Falx, Dao, Falcata, etc.

I'm on the same page with you there. I earlier mentioned that saying Nin's dual knives are the same as DRK's greatsword is basically like saying DRG's lance is the same as the bow and arrow.

Even just dual swords would be fine. NIN back wields his knives (a rather ineffective style to be honest, but expertly flashy) True dual weilding is best done with a longsword and a shorter parrying dagger. The biggest historical example of a truly successful dual wielder is Musashi Miyamoto, who basically one man armied against up to 24 warriors once using two swords. (including opponents with bows) Accounts differ greatly, but a few things are fact, He knowingly came to the "duel" that was actually an ambush with murdering intent and he turned it around. I mean he came out of it half dead and was basically unconscious for a few days after according to some reports. But seriously impressive. At one point the guy literally stopped using real swords because he kept killing his opponents, and then he started killing them with wooden sword strikes too @_@.

Anyways that's enough mild Historical musashi fan for the moment. Please note my above paragraph holds discrepancies that some scholars argue about.

But of the swords we have each is extremely unique fighting style. Sword and Board PLD classic, Greatsword/claymore style. Katana Iai Style. RDM fencing is absolutely unique and restricts one from using slashes in favor of flourished stabs and ripostes. NIN dual knives is less practical in reality, but basically acrobatic.

[SaberMaxwell]

When I think of my ideal Mystic Knight, Sora does come to mind. Another that I envision would be Milla Maxwell of the Tales of Xillia games: being the embodiment of the God Maxwell, she used all four elements in conjunction with her swordplay.

Interestingly she, much like Red Mage, has a spellcasting system where she can hardcast or quickcast a spell; difference being the spell had different effects based on hard or quick cast. Hardcasting a wind spell generated a hurricane, and quickcasting it generated three successive strikes of a wind blade.

[WalxAtNite]

Wouldn't beastmaster be considered magical? Maybe I should have elaborated a little more.

I guess it could be physical.

[Archwizard]

Wouldn't beastmaster be considered magical? Maybe I should have elaborated a little more.

I guess it could be physical.

From the wiki,

The Beastmaster (魔獣使い, Majūtsukai?, lit. Monster Tamer), also known as Trainer or Mediator, is a job class that appears in various titles in the series. Beastmasters are characterized by wearing clothing similar to one who works with animals. Beastmasters have been known to use weapons from daggers to axes to whips. Their stats are usually physical in nature and their abilities include the ability to catch monsters and release them on their opponents, and can also Control the actions of opponents and lure them away.

The only magical aspects of the job are occasionally the methods they use to subdue monsters, and the magical abilities of monsters they control, of which the same monsters will often inflict physical damage as well or instead.
(Bearing in mind that NIN also uses magic damage in their techniques, and BLU also uses some physical techniques. In either case they are not known to cross-over into magical or physical DPS, respectively.)
Otherwise they don't have any kind of magical focus, and as their unique weapon is a whip in addition to the ability to command pets from a distance, it makes sense they would be more of a ranged job.

[Archwizard]

So, some milestones to note for our project, using other melee as examples:

• Amusingly, every melee gains a mitigation or recovery skill by the time they reach level 15. (If you stretch it and say Life Surge is "recovery" for DRG anyway, who otherwise only has Elusive Jump at 35.)
  If nothing else I concept makes it this far, note that Runic and Critical Shell are common to Spellblade designs, so some kind of anti-magic barrier wouldn't go amiss this early. (Though NIN previously got flak for having an anti-magic barrier until ShB so, maybe just a general barrier with a bonus to magic?)
• With MNK as the major exception, every melee appears to learn a ranged attack at level 15. (MNK instead gains stances to increase mitigation or personal movement speed.)
• MNK and SAM learn their first AoE skills at level 26. NIN and DRG don't learn until 38/40, respectively. (While tanks need them early for threat purposes, it's an interesting contrast to casters -- SMN get their first at 10, RDM at 15, and BLM at 18.)
• DRG, MNK and NIN all learn their first movement skills between level 35 and 40. (SAM is the odd man out here, not learning its gap closer until 54, which I expect is related to its state as an unlocked job and the below...)
• SAM, interestingly, learns all of its weaponskills by the time it's unlocked at level 50, and only gains abilities from there-on (though I expect that's due to the iaijutsu "quick swings" style) -- consequently it only starts with 1 ability, a mitigation skill. NIN and MNK similarly only gain two weaponskills after level 50, though DRG cheats by being a late bloomer with regards to AoE.
• MNK has its job gauge unlocked at level 6 and expanded at 15 and 70, SAM at 30/52, NIN at 45/62, while DRG doesn't unlock its until 54 or expand until 70.

While I'm sure we all expect any future jobs to unlock around level 60-70, maybe even 80 by the time they get around to melee, this type of general progression is something to keep in mind for level synched content like dungeon roulettes -- don't want to be stuck without an AoE for MSQ, don't want to be accused of being OP by having one for Sastasha before other melee.

I'm on the same page with you there. I earlier mentioned that saying Nin's dual knives are the same as DRK's greatsword is basically like saying DRG's lance is the same as the bow and arrow.

Even just dual swords would be fine. NIN back wields his knives (a rather ineffective style to be honest, but expertly flashy) True dual weilding is best done with a longsword and a shorter parrying dagger. The biggest historical example of a truly successful dual wielder is Musashi Miyamoto, who basically one man armied against up to 24 warriors once using two swords. (including opponents with bows) Accounts differ greatly, but a few things are fact, He knowingly came to the "duel" that was actually an ambush with murdering intent and he turned it around. I mean he came out of it half dead and was basically unconscious for a few days after according to some reports. But seriously impressive. At one point the guy literally stopped using real swords because he kept killing his opponents, and then he started killing them with wooden sword strikes too @_@.

Anyways that's enough mild Historical musashi fan for the moment. Please note my above paragraph holds discrepancies that some scholars argue about.

But of the swords we have each is extremely unique fighting style. Sword and Board PLD classic, Greatsword/claymore style. Katana Iai Style. RDM fencing is absolutely unique and restricts one from using slashes in favor of flourished stabs and ripostes. NIN dual knives is less practical in reality, but basically acrobatic.

Personally I'm weary of giving Spellblade dual weapons, and not just because of NIN, but for more aesthetic reasons (which, to be fair, which weapon each job gets is largely aesthetic in the first place).

1. Dual-wielding, and by extension NIN's access to twin weapons, is supposed to be symbolic of a role as a high attacks-per-minute melee job -- you push more buttons because you're swinging more rapidly, main-hand and off-hand. If we were to put our pet project here in the same position, we'd be talking about designing a job with high APM focused around abilities, which I feel is somewhat limiting from a design perspective in "how do we execute the sense of dual wielding without doing the same high APM thing as NIN" and invites much of the same issues NIN faces at present with its present balance, "we push more buttons and my fingers are cramping but we don't necessarily do much more damage."
   I rather think the Spellblade's forte should rather be in empowering individual strikes of a more... average tempo.
2. Which brings me to the other point, unless we take Duelle's example where each sword gets a different enchantment at a time, there's very little practical reason to have two weapons in terms of animation, particularly in cases where one swing would do. I grant I've already suggested the possibility of having each individual swing inflict multiple hits at once, but that's supposed to highlight the enchantments themselves (which to address Wayfinder's point, would allow the elemental effect to inherit bonuses to physical damage by scaling off an initial physical swing) rather than multiple swings in succession.
3. The longsword and parry dagger combo is tricky as well. Not only would the longsword mean having to work around PLD or, god forbid, RDM in terms of weapon design (which I admit isn't impossible for the devs to accomplish, given both BLM and WHM have very different staves for instance), but the mismatched weapons would be frustrating as well from a player perspective -- either they're joined together like RDM's rapier and focus (in which case you have to deal with the glamour pain of "this sword is nice but I hate the dagger" and vice versa -- which unlike RDM doesn't carry the practicality of the two being a linked weapon), or they're separated in which case you'll face similar practical gearing troubles as PLD (and I wouldn't doubt that there's a reason only PLD has that trouble).
   Besides, the parrying dagger is literally supposed to be a substitute for a shield -- hence parrying dagger. Swordbreaker daggers were even made to catch onto oncoming weapons. If we're not a tank there's not really a reason to have one.
4. There appear to largely be two major cosmetic appearances for Spellblade armor throughout FF that stand out: The West European fencer/duelist appearance they've had since Tactics, and the Indian or Middle Eastern-inspired armor sets they've had since FF5. One of those is an aesthetic shared with another existing job, no points for guessing who. If we go with the longsword and parry dagger, it would either need to be tied to a completely new aesthetic that isn't shared with an existing job (good luck!), or explain why we're mixing cultural visual cues, which is a whole area I don't think anyone here wants to get into.
5. And lastly, I can't think of a single example of a Spellblade, Mystic Knight, Rune Fencer, etc. that dual-wielded.

I'd never say never to it, but unless we find the design demands two weapons, let's maybe start with just one?

[WalxAtNite]

Okay. I have an idea.

What if... (hear me out)

What if we had a job similar to disc priest in WoW? A DPS/healer hybrid class requiring the healer to do damage in order to heal? It would be something new and challenging for the healers who haven't had a new class in years, and it would work just fine as magical melee DPS, too.

Again... maybe something to do with the elements? Fire, Earth, Air, Water, Ice, etc. Weapons imbued with the elements... perhaps something dual-wield like double switchblades or something. Put a HoT on people, then start beating on the mobs to ramp up that HoT. The more DPS actions in succession (with no heals), the higher the heal, and the more heals in succession (with no DPS), the higher the DPS.

Could maybe even allow the player to put themselves in an elemental "stance" of sorts. Spells change based in the chosen stance; each stance has a cooldown before it can be used again - think Bard songs, but with the various elements.

DPS/heal spells changing based on the current Eorzean weather, but only aesthetically as anything else would be too much RNG.

CDs could be situational and the job gauge might fill by doing significant damage. The "powerful" abilities would include both a hard-hitting magical attack and an "oh shit" heal to be used at the player's discretion.

The utility would be insane. It may be difficult to balance, though... needs to be strong enough to manage a 4-man solo, but not so strong that EVERYONE plays it.

It could be called Elementalist and be defined as a DPS/healer hybrid that can be utilized efficiently in ALL content as long as the player knows how to balance it.

[SaberMaxwell]

That's a fine concept for a Healer, and in this game Healers are the closest we have to Healer/DPS hybrids given they already do DPS as part of their kit (gutted as it may be).

But it wouldn't be a real hybrid, Red Mage is already suffering because of some weird "it's a hybrid!" fantasy. It would be a healer end of the day. A magical melee DPS would hopefully still have room to exist.

[WalxAtNite]

That's a fine concept for a Healer, and in this game Healers are the closest we have to Healer/DPS hybrids given they already do DPS as part of their kit (gutted as it may be).

But it wouldn't be a real hybrid, Red Mage is already suffering because of some weird "it's a hybrid!" fantasy. It would be a healer end of the day. A magical melee DPS would hopefully still have room to exist.

Probably. They are difficult to balance, but what if it was done in such a way that the player could choose how to queue - healer or DPS - and perform either role just as capably as any other healer or DPS?

It's probably just a fantasy to be fair.

I've never played RDM, so I can't agree or disagree, but I will take your word for it. The class this idea is based on - Discipline Priest - was not exactly balanced... especially in later expansions. If I queued as DPS (and I pulled good DPS with Discipline), I would have gotten laughed out of the instance.

Had nothing to do with what it was capable of, because it could pull decent numbers higher than many of the DPS specs out there.

I think it was just the mindset. Either way, it would be fun to see it... but only if it could be balanced to fill either role effectively depending on the situation and the needs of the group.

[Archwizard]

Okay. I have an idea.

What if... (hear me out)

What if we had a job similar to disc priest in WoW? A DPS/healer hybrid class requiring the healer to do damage in order to heal? It would be something new and challenging for the healers who haven't had a new class in years, and it would work just fine as magical melee DPS, too.

Again... maybe something to do with the elements? Fire, Earth, Air, Water, Ice, etc. Weapons imbued with the elements... perhaps something dual-wield like double switchblades or something. Put a HoT on people, then start beating on the mobs to ramp up that HoT. The more DPS actions in succession (with no heals), the higher the heal, and the more heals in succession (with no DPS), the higher the DPS.

It could be called Elementalist and be defined as a DPS/healer hybrid that can be utilized efficiently in ALL content as long as the player knows how to balance it.

- "Elementalist" is another name for Geomancer, which I expect could only be implemented separately from WHM as a bell-ringing Caster DPS focused on the Earth/Wind/Water offensive skills WHM will never use. Maybe dip into Fire magic for their ultimate skills, since Swallow's Compass has the "Heart of the Dragon" featuring a fire-elemental auspice. Geomancers are a job based on Feng Shui, where the tradition holds that dragons (metaphorically) live beneath the land, making fire magic appropriate.
Something sort of like BLM in many ways, where the job is focused on maintaining a rooted position as often as possible and doesn't provide any kind of Rez skill. Unlike BLM it could drop totems or cleanse patches of earth to buff allies, perhaps even briefly summon elemental spirits to attack; unlike Conjurers, Geomancers use their powers to repel or subdue spirits of the land, and as we've seen in Swallow's Compass, that includes commanding them.
I've been tossing around the idea of GEO having an AoE combo where they use Tornado to pull enemies into one spot, Quake to keep them in place and Flood to burst them down. Perhaps drop a volcanic Eruption spell in there.

- Personally for a healer, I'd like to see Necromancer. An occultist, scythe-wielding Battle Healer job that focuses on draining and redistributing life from enemies to heal allies, while cursing foes, sacrificing minions, and granting allies variant Undead statuses (like Vampire or Ghost) to increase their survivability. Maybe even see one that can throw out Death, now that Urianger has opened that floodgate (I know he's an AST, but NPCs use different rules and he already has Aetherial Manipulation from BLM).

And again, cool concept, not really the thread for it.