Concept for a Magic Melee DPS

[Wayfinder3]

This isnt a dang rdm rework thread. My god go make your own thread. Especially when the posts start getting as lengthy as they have.

Op said RDM doesn’t count in his opinion as he would prefer something that’s more of the opposite. The very first comment on this thread explains what I’m trying to say. What would make this job mechanically different from the 4 melee dps that we have. I’m not going to even mention RDM. Why do we need 5 melee dps when this game only as 8 slots per raid and at best, 2 of them will be dedicated to melee. Melee dps is one of the hardest roles to balance and currently it’s the most overpowered one. This thread is only concerned with the thematics of a spellblade job but, doesn’t have a meaningful explanation for why we should even get another melee DPS and what that dps would do to set it apart from Ninja Dragoon, Monk, and Samurai.

Thematically we have 6 jobs that use swords
Dual Swords NIN
Katana SAM
Gunblade GNB
Rapier RDM
Broad sword PLD
Great Sword DRK

Do we really need a 7th sword user that will be the 5th melee dps thats currently tied with tanks as the most bloated role that’s also historically the most tedious to balance, just because you guys want something that can easily been implemented on another job.

Explain what would make this job different from our current melee, what it would contribute, and how it would fit into the balance of the whole role. Will it be Utility, will it be pure or middle road. Explain the benefits of making a melee dps that does magical damage when the last magic only damage buff( contagion) was removed and this game currently and historically favors physical damage. Brotherhood and Embolden still do. This job would be dead on arrival if it game out as a melee dps doing magical damage for no reason, and if it had utility comparable to contagion. It’d make caster comps completely busted and limit the way the job will be used. Nobody would want one unless you’re in a hyper magic comp. RDM would still not play with it but BLM and SMN would love it

There are things that matter beyond how cool a spellblader that does magic damage instead of physical.

[Archwizard]

Couple things, 11 is a very different game than 14.

And it's also just one example I can provide of distinction between Red Mage and the (Spell/Mystic/Rune)(Blade/Knight/Fencer) archetype. They're considered separate jobs in 5, 11, Tactics, Record Keeper, Bravely Default, and so on -- and that's only including games with that type of explicit job naming. I would also venture to use FF6 as an example, with Terra as a Red Mage (using curative/offensive magic and light swords) versus Celes as a Spellblade (explicitly called a Rune Knight, who has stronger equipment, largely learns offensive and status spells, and can absorb magic).
I can find only one FF game featuring Spell Fencer that doesn't separately have a Red Mage (4 Heroes of Light). That's not something you can say about any of the other jobs you named in your example.

But as you say, the two are separate games. Where in 11 Ninja was infamously turned into an accidental Evasion tank, here it's a pure DPS whose Ninjutsu effects largely resemble the Black Magic the job dabbled in during early titles. As you said yourself, where Red Mage could sub in for a healing role, in 14 it's more restricted by the Holy Trinity.
The gameplay of a Spellblade is expected to be different as well -- that doesn't make it exclusive with Red Mage. In fact, in 11 it was an anti-magic tank, a role that is now occupied by the Dark Knight in 14 -- which was instead a magical melee DPS in 11, so a swap would just bring it full-circle.

this means your new spellblader wouldn't be allowed to do alot of what you're hoping it can do

All I'm hoping it can do is imbue attacks with elements, for both itself and the party. That's largely doable in 14, and a thread like this is where more would be intended to be hashed out -- if we hadn't gotten side-tracked with defending its very existence.

and would instead just be another melee dps(we have 4 already)

it's not worth it imo and, improving RDM seems like the better way of doing this instead of giving the melee dps role 5 jobs when it at best can only have 2 slots.

Nobody here has asked for anything unique from this spellblader that RDM can't do

eventually, this game will have to stop adding new jobs.

Explain what would make this job different from our current melee, what it would contribute, and how it would fit into the balance of the whole role.

And if this were a concept for a caster or a healer, you might've had a point there. Please do take those arguments any time someone brings up Chemist as the "inevitable" next job and only mentions Mix and throwing potions to separate it from the chaff.

Here's the thing you're ignoring: Nobody is saying the devs have to add a Spellblade today, or even next expansion. Yoshi-P has already said a big part of why DNC got added in ShB was because he wanted to start balancing out the roles we already had (where we only had two ranged DPS), so the general expectation is that next expansion will bring two of either a Caster DPS, Physical Ranged DPS, or a Healer.
You're right: melee DPS is one of the most bloated roles at present. Were there to be a new melee DPS added, it would be at least two expansions down the road after every role is "balanced" again, and who knows what design choices will be made before then, so it's a moot point to go into "well what can it bring to the utility table that any other job can't" when we don't know what the meta will even look like at the time such a job is even being considered.
It wouldn't surprise me if at that point the devs made one just because they got tired of making only ranged roles for 4 years.

Besides, it's not like SAM exactly revolutionized melee either when it was introduced. I still see complaints that RDM was brought in during a time when the casters were already imbalanced.

This thread is literally just about having a space for people to design a melee job with some magic -- OP literally asks if anyone has thought one up. The thread is getting side-tracked with arguing over whether we need one or not; we already know we don't, so quit thought-policing and just let people have their fun, savvy?

Here's some barebones concepts to show why I disagree with you:

You aren't really showing "why you disagree", you're just discussing an alternative concept that would allow your ideas for RDM to go unabated.
That there are multiple avenues such a job could take only goes to my point that the RDM and a Spellblade could co-exist, and in fact goes to defeat previous points about "robbing potential" from RDM.

That said, if the devs increased the frequency of the melee combo, I'd take it. I wouldn't be entirely kind to it, but I would also recognize it as a step forward.

Which I expect is the direction that the job will most likely take for advancements in future expansions, especially considering Scorch and Improved Manafication in ShB -- hastening the melee combo little by little.

That's a very questionable stretch of logic. Even ignoring that, you're still casting a spell after it if Dualcast procs.

Semantics, unless you fully expect a possibility of hitting two melee attacks as a starter and being able to string together enough Dualcast procs in a row to spend the next 20 sec purely casting so you have time to step away to deal with mechanics and step back without significant damage loss.

You talked about being out of melee range and how no RDM would attempt to do anything until they were able to close the gap. I argued to the contrary, and you decided to bring up unrelated situations (movement phases taken on an entirely different meaning when you're able to attack and continue your combos) and absolute no brainers (Who would ignore adds during an adds phase?) in an attempt to counter.

No, I said that there is no reason a melee job out of melee range for any given period would be in a position to sit still and hardcast a spell for the duration they're at range, and that there are reasons why all of the ranged attacks available to other jobs are instant. Simply giving the job a greater variety of effects it could use at range compared to a dedicated melee is a moot point, since at the end of the day you won't have the time to cast more than a couple times before it becomes a damage loss and will still get more value out of being close-up.

Hey, you're the one that wanted guaranteed Dualcast; I'm perfectly happy with it being purely a proc to react to.

Only because the alternative you provided was hardcasting, though I admit I had missed that Jolt was instant at the time.

You seem to have forgotten some people came on to FFXIV's RDM expecting a sword & spell hybrid. Especially after how FFXI's RDM turned out. And that sentiment, while not unanimous, has existed since 1.0 was announced (one of the first topics in the FFXIV section of the fan forum I was a member of at the time was a melee RDM topic).

I have not forgotten that, actually -- why do you think we're in this thread.

Yes, you'd have to stand in melee range. No, that's not a bad thing.

In a vacuum, no, being in melee range for a brief period isn't a bad thing, that's how RDM can get away with spending about 7 seconds in melee every minute, especially when they have enough leeway to hold off on jumping in immediately.
The problem comes when the job is expected to spend larger swathes of time in melee range, since we have a fraction of the survivability of your average melee. We would be more vulnerable to risky maneuvers than other melee yet just as required to take the same risks to maintain DPS, unless we get lucky with procs.

[Wayfinder3]

your perspective

my contribution to this thread is that, we don't need a new melee job that is worse off for doing magic damage just so that it can give out damage buffs, we can just improve the RDM experience so that we reach a the desired out come. (Elemental status doesn't matter in this game) You could literally argue that Embolden imbues the weps of physical jobs with magic to increase their power because adding fire element doesn't do anything in this game. also FF6 has no job system(Terra and Celes could be considered paladins, Red mages, and rune fencers if you really wanted to and none of them would be wrong) and all of those other games aren't MMOs besides 11 which means the jobs have no limitations in what they can do and thus aren't relevant talking about here. if RDM wasn't apart of the trinity in this game, the job could literally do whatever it wanted and would be able to be this hyper melee spellblader. this thread isn't off topic, there are more angles to job implementation beyond what it would look like. what it does, how it balances, and other ingame similarities are also valid things to consider when designing a job.

Chemist is a valid option for a new job because there isn't anything inherently similar to Mixing potion from WHM, SCH, and AST. but every person that plays healer knows the job will have a AoE Regen, some sort of shield, a cure 1/2 and healer dome, and a Raise because these are things that all of them share. the gimmick is the full emphasis in this comparison because there is nothing quite like chemist unless we're talking about the Crafter class Alchemist. Right now the whole premis of this thread is that, lets get a melee that does magic dps and is a spell blader. Then we get a random assortment of things like, it can imbue magic to others weps and do elemental strikes.

Im challenging this from a fundamental level,
Imbueing magic doesn't matter in a game where elements don't matter, so it's either a Damage Buff or a Defensive Buff of which, nothing is inherently unique
Doing Magic Damage isn't even a good thing is this game, why get a melee DPS that does magic dps when historically, NIN's Bhav getting changed to magic was a nerf for the job.
Elemental strikes: elements don't matter

I'm not trying to suck your fun away, im handling this like the Devs likely would when discussing a new job. What would this job do IN the context of final fantasy 14 thats different enough to make it a job on it's own. saying mystic fencer, rune fencer, mystic knight etc... was different from RDM in another game thats not FFXIV isn't saying anything when the games you listed aren't HEAVILY limited by the Holy trinity of Tank, Healer, and DPS.

[Wayfinder3]

So lets discuss this Mystic Knight under the lense of FFXIV

Q: What would Mystic Knight be?
A: melee dps that does magic damage and doesn't cast like Red Mage (according to OP)

Q: but why does it do magic damage as a melee dps, what benefit would this give the job, how would positionals come into play, will it have alot like MNK or a little like SAM?
A: IDK

Q: What gimmicks might it have?
A: It can do the following:
Imbue Weps of Party Members with Elements(What effects would these be if Elements inherently don't matter in this game?)

Q: Where would this job place relative to the other jobs in it's Role, Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, and Samurai
A: Since we've decided this job will empower party members, this job will be a utility DPS which will place it around Dragoon, and Ninja

Q: will this job have more utility than Dragoon but less damage similar to Ninja, or will it have less utility than Ninja but more damage akin to Dragoon. what is the target balance in relation to them?
A: IDK

Q: This job has elements very similar to Red Mage, what is the distinction between this job and Red mage beyond the range they fight in?
A: there really isn't as RDM can and has done many of the things these jobs are being sold as in this thread but you're free to tell me some.

Q: How would the Melee Role balance now having 5 dps in 1 role when raids only can take at most 2.
A: Melee dps would for sure need to have 2 slots and this will give additional benefits to dissuade groups from taking 3 ranged roles. Melee dps would need to be significantly stronger which will translate to the role being stronger on average to prevent the 2 worst melees from being outcast. (it's currently the strongest role in the game)

these are just some of the questions that the dev team likely considers when approaching a new job, if we're going to talk about a new melee dps that does magic damage, lets start with these.

Resource gauge tracks the current Enchantment timer and stocked Runic Charges.

For the time being, consider all attacks in each "Chain" section to be interchangeable within each step of a combo.

Chain 1 attacks:
- Smite: Deal unaspected damage to the target
- Sparkstrike/Thunder Stroke: Deal minor lightning damage to the target and gain Enthunder, causing auto-attacks and weaponskills to chain additional lightning damage to nearby enemies; mutually exclusive with Enfire and Enblizzard
- Nightblade: Deal minor damage to the target and siphon off a percentage of the damage dealt as HP

Chain 2 attacks:
- Flamestrike/Flametongue: Deal fire damage; if used as a combo action, gain Enfire, causing auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal a modicum of additional fire damage and inflict a stacking DoT effect; mutually exclusive with Enblizzard and Enthunder
- Froststrike/Icebrand: Deal ice damage; if used as a combo action, gain Enblizzard, causing auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal a larger amount of additional ice damage and return MP; mutually exclusive with Enfire and Enthunder
- Aquastrike/Liquid Steel: Deal increased water damage to the target; does not interfere with current enchantments
- Blitz: Deal damage to surrounding enemies, inheriting the element of your active enchantment

Chain 3 attacks:
- Galestrike: Deal wind damage to the target; if used as a combo action, gain Quickening, causing your next spell to become instant and reducing its GCD
- Whirlwind: Deal damage to surrounding enemies, inheriting the element of your active enchantment; if used as a combo action, gain Quickening, causing your next spell to become instant and reducing its GCD

Spells (5 sec cast time apiece):
- Imperil: Deal minor unaspected damage and increase target vulnerability to your magic damage for a modest MP cost
- Banish: Deal heavy unaspected damage to a single target for a high MP cost
- Alterna: Deal moderate damage to the target and diminishing damage to nearby enemies for a heavy MP cost

For each use of a finishing spell, the user gains a Runic Charge. Upon accumulating 3 Runic Charges, the user has access to one of two Finishing moves:
- Ars Arcanum: After a cast time, unleash a devastating multi-hit melee attack on the target
- Aetherial Slice: After a cast time, unleash a wave-motion attack against enemies in a cone before you

Gap closer:
- Warp Strike: Throw an aetherial blade toward the enemy and teleport to it, dealing damage to the target; 30 sec CD
--> Improved Warp Strike: Allows the accumulation of charges on Warp Strike, allowing it to be used twice in succession
--> Link Strikes: Allows Warp Strike to be used on allied targets as well, restoring the target's HP and causing your next Warp Strike within 15 sec to critically hit

Ranged attack:
- Strike Raid: Instantly toss your weapon at the target in a spinning slash before summoning it back to your hand. 20% chance to gain Quickening in the process.

Other oGCDs:
- Breaker Blade: Deal Earth elemental damage damage and extend your current enchantment's duration
- Tempered Saber: Increase personal attack power and accuracy for a short duration
- Endrain: Enchant your allies' weapons, causing all weaponskills and spells to siphon off a percentage of damage dealt as HP
- Runic Shell: Create a barrier, absorbing magic damage received by all allies for a brief duration to charge your own MP

Rough idea is:
- Chain Smite -> Flametongue -> Galestrike -> Imperil to open or keep debuffs up
- Chain Smite -> Liquid Steel -> Galestrike -> Banish as your core combo to build up to Ars Arcanum
- Weave Icebrand in place of Flametongue/Liquid Steel when Flametongue's DoT stacks to its maximum
- Chain Thunder Stroke -> Blitz -> Whirlwind -> Alterna for AoE damage to build Aetherial Slice
--> Alternately, Thunder Stroke -> Liquid Steel -> Galestrike -> Alterna in two-targets
- Spam Strike Raid at range unless a proc comes up to cast a spell
- Nightblade to recover, since Bloodbath won't really be an option with all this magic damage now will it

Lets assume this is how the job played. This is fine and i can get behind it however, What would the job do in the bigger picture. All of this is just conjecture of how it would play, but none of this talks about it's synergies, it's strengths, it's weakness, it's contribution. It's just an identity and concept given a skeleton but none of the actual meat that jobs require to be realized.

edit: alot of the skill names are Keyblade abilities, it feels like you want that as a playable job and are using mystic knight as a vehicle for it.