Concept for a Magic Melee DPS

[Archwizard]

This is a public forum, and as long as the topic isn't completely off topic. everyone's input is welcome regardless of if you choose to humor it. RDM IS RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION OF A NEW MAGICAL SPELL BLADE MELEE DPS saying it isn't is like saying NIN/ROG aren't relevant to the discussion of a new Thief job(even if the thief job was a ranged that used throwing knives or however else people like to spin these difference) and we don't need a new job for every little distinction that someone decides to expand on. it's ok to have some of the current jobs pull aspects of other possible jobs to prevent job bloat and more balancing nightmares. we already have enough melee dps as it is

The objection I had was that Katie's point was completely off topic, and verged on opening a dialogue about reworking Red Mage in a thread about concepting a new job.
If she had gone into any other thread discussing a concept for a new Melee DPS and said "We shouldn't have any more melee jobs until they expand on RDM's melee potential," it would be a complete non sequitor and tossed out for taking quite a logical leap with regards to RDM's design future.
The only reason it was humored so long in this thread was because the title nebulously mentioned a Magic Melee DPS -- even without specifically discussing skills or playstyle that would infringe on Red Mage in any way, repeatedly stating that its very existence was a threat to Red Mage.

That's not feedback, that's just claiming the sky is falling and that the subject is forbidden.

I choose to no longer debate Red Mage's design (or the pointlessness of headcanon) in this thread. OP asked for ideas in concepting a new melee DPS, not reworking Red Mage.

You are right, however: asking for a Spellblade when RDM is around is a bit like asking for Time Mage while we've got Astrologian.

Not really. FF11 had Rune Fencer and Red Mage simultaneously as wildly different jobs in completely different roles, the former being one of the alternate names of a Spellblade job.
By contrast, Astrologian is in itself an expansion of and effective rename to Time Mage. Concepts like "Berserker", "Viking" and "Ranger" are largely hollow jobs known only for one gimmick, or having certain stats or equipment proficiencies, and would each be difficult to expand into a full job on their own. I wouldn't ask for a "Magus" or "Devout" either because they're literally made just to be suped-up versions of other jobs.

To say that Spellblade/Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer falls into the same category is to completely fail to understand the job. Which I doubt, given you yourself said you largely play Red Mage to fulfill the separate Spellblade fantasy, not for Red Mage itself.

The problem with Wayfinder's argument about combining the Red Mage with Spellblade is that they're independent concepts as-is, with enough design clout behind them to make two separate jobs, as has been done in the past -- Red Mage still has plenty of room for expansion purely in the magic department that it hardly even needs to touch on adding new melee skills (which as I explained would actually be detrimental to the job at this stage). If we attempt to push two job concepts together that would actually have depth on their own, you end up with a disjointed abomination that plays exactly like a mishmash of two jobs and doesn't know what it wants to be. Push more melee skills into a caster job and you'll end up not with an elegant hybrid, but a job trying to have the best of both worlds and failing to achieve either.
Case in point, two camps that want separate things from Red Mage -- one for it to be the first caster with every element and support skills, one for it to be a melee hybrid, both simultaneously complaining their side feels shallow. If anything deflating RDM in this regard can only help add depth to whatever remains.
We already have enough complaints as-is about Summoner and Scholar for similar reasons: they each retain elements of the other which can feel out of place -- for lack of a better word, "clunky" -- as a player.

I honestly wonder sometimes if Red Mage should have been a healer from the outset. The way healers in this game work, it would be much easier to accommodate a "hybrid role" class fantasy.

Doubtful, largely because of what we ended up with for Scholar. Throughout previous entries Scholar and Red Mage have had something of an overlap wherein both would offer a mix of White and Black Magic; with Scholar covering that same fantasy in a healing role, Red Mage would have to have been greatly set apart, which was easier to accomplish by putting the two in different roles -- which goes back to being relevant to my above point, as a Melee DPS role is largely a separate role from a Caster DPS.

[Wayfinder3]

The problem with Wayfinder's argument about combining the Red Mage with Spellblade is that they're independent concepts as-is, with enough design clout behind them to make two separate jobs, as has been done in the past -- Red Mage still has plenty of room for expansion purely in the magic department that it hardly even needs to touch on adding new melee skills (which as I explained would actually be detrimental to the job at this stage). If we attempt to push two job concepts together that would actually have depth on their own, you end up with a disjointed abomination that plays exactly like a mishmash of two jobs and doesn't know what it wants to be. Push more melee skills into a caster job and you'll end up not with an elegant hybrid, but a job trying to have the best of both worlds and failing to achieve either.
We already have enough complaints as-is about Summoner and Scholar for similar reasons: they each retain elements of the other which can feel out of place -- for lack of a better word, "clunky" -- as a player.

Couple things, 11 is a very different game than 14. 14's combat design requires that jobs be able to do the same things amongst their roles. this means, Rune Fencer, Mystic Knight, etc... wouldn't be this vastly different job from the actual melee dps in the game. instead, it'd just be a new flavor of MNK, DRG, SAM, and NIN, that happens to be thematically similar to RDM. 11 didn't have this issue so the comparison can't be made. proof of this claim is that every jobs utilities and kits are all fundamentally similar in this game, all tanks have invuls, all melee have gap closers and weak defensive cds or none at all, Healers kits mirror each other skill for skill except their unique gimmicks, all ranged have a troubadour equivalent. casters are the exception to this and thats only because BLM stubbornly won't get a raise. raise is currently the biggest issue plaguing casters so thats not even a good thing that the role is different in this way. in 11, RDM COULD actually substitute a healer

this means your new spellblader wouldn't be allowed to do alot of what you're hoping it can do and would instead just be another melee dps(we have 4 already) with weak or no defensives and a gap closer as well as a gimmick. the problem now comes in, regardless of how this job feels to play or if this gimmick is fun. If it doesn't do anything, people will perpetually dislike it. Look at SAM as proof and, you're asking for another job that'll invalidate SAM or get invalidated by NIN, DRG, and MNK. it's not worth it imo and, improving RDM seems like the better way of doing this instead of giving the melee dps role 5 jobs when it at best can only have 2 slots. you're also claiming the only way for them to expand on RDM is through magical ranged combat only but thats not entirely true either. they can expand on the melee dps nature of RDM without overstepping it's place as a caster dps by simpling making the melee combo refined and precise, my previous comment mentions a efficient way of adding new melee to RDM without comprising it's position as a ranged.

THe Summoner and Scholar example doesn't apply here very well because these were 2 seperate concept/jobs with nothing alike being tied to one base where as, fundamentally. RDM can easily stand in as the avatar for all other spellblading jobs because spellblader as itself is just a concept, it doesn't imply anything more than magic with a sword. Nobody here has asked for anything unique from this spellblader that RDM can't do, they just want another spellblader. Summoner and Scholar aren't remotely similar in concepts and the devs have openly stated regret in treating them as they did. Im not trying to say red mage monopolizes the spell blade position, im saying, the amount of jobs in this game is getting to become alot and we don't need to add another job to expand on a small concept that RDM can fill.

eventually, this game will have to stop adding new jobs. this holy trinity limitation means that the more jobs we get, the more jobs need to be able to clear content, which intern means more homogenization in what jobs offer. Look at the jobs as they are now, compared to Heavensward especially tanks. nearly pruned dry